The golden rule of thumb!

h4n1s

I noticed very interesting pattern on these forums: The more you complain the higher reputation rating you get.

Of course there are exceptions, but those are VERY rare like if you post something very useful like characters compendium, you get sticky and good rating.

Take a look on 'Topics that have gone green' compendium (http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8561&hilit=gone+green)

What you'll find there is that most commonly green topics are those complaining about certain aspects of the game over and over again or goodbye topics from old vets (all due respect guys) which are in many cases - again - full of complaints. The harder you are on D3 and the dev team the better rep you get.
There are some topics which are complaining in a constructive way - i.e offering ideas for improvement - but again big bunch of those are just yet another complaints and it's hard to separate those good ones from those bad ones...

You may get down voted for insensitive comments (that works very well - I got some downvotes myself - am not saint in this) and I am happy to keep it that way.

Among green topics I would wish to see only those which have added value for the community, or are simply fun to read/participate in.

Let's change the pattern, let us get back to the original idea of reputation:
-> Upvote just those comments which you believe the majority of community should see, which have added value.
-> Downvote those which don't have added value and are just repetitive frustration messages.

Use the Suggestions and Feedback forum for such complains combined with space for improvement and suggestions to devs and make the General discussion more of a fun to read again.

Unknown

The complaining threads go green because the entire community recognizes what is wrong with this game.

D3P is just blind to all the problems for whatever reason.

People upvote complaining threads, not so that other players can see them, but so that the devs can see them.

Maybe if they opened their eyes for a few seconds, they could see how many good ideas their community has for this game and start to develop them into the game, rather than just going for the easy money and forcing people to leave due to being burnt out.

h4n1s

onimus wrote:

The complaining threads go green because the entire community recognizes what is wrong with this game.

D3P is just blind to all the problems for whatever reason.

People upvote complaining threads, not so that other players can see them, but so that the devs can see them.

Maybe if they opened their eyes for a few seconds, they could see how many good ideas their community has for this game and start to develop them into the game, rather than just going for the easy money and forcing people to leave due to being burnt out.

Their eyes are open wide, the action may not prove it though. But think for yourself about following situation - you want to eat a sandwich for breakfast (you like it, you have a reason for it). Your wife comes to you and tells you that you should eat banana (you don't like them, they make you feel bad in stomach). So you acknowledge the comment but won't act on it. Now your wife comes shouting at you. She brings her mother, brother, sister and her co-worker, to tell you the same: "We don't like you eating sandwiches. You should eat banana for breakfast". Will you change your behavior just because it is already 5 people telling you the same thing and raising their voices on you? No, most likely not. You might just get upset and in certain point of time you will start ignoring them.

Majority of the comments and complaints have been already acknowledged by developers. What I find boring though is the persistence and negative nature of some topics on these forums.

Unknown

h4n1s wrote:

onimus wrote:

The complaining threads go green because the entire community recognizes what is wrong with this game.

D3P is just blind to all the problems for whatever reason.

People upvote complaining threads, not so that other players can see them, but so that the devs can see them.

Maybe if they opened their eyes for a few seconds, they could see how many good ideas their community has for this game and start to develop them into the game, rather than just going for the easy money and forcing people to leave due to being burnt out.

Their eyes are open wide, the action may not prove it though. But think for yourself about following situation - you want to eat a sandwich for breakfast (you like it, you have a reason for it). Your wife comes to you and tells you that you should eat banana (you don't like them, they make you feel bad in stomach). So you acknowledge the comment but won't act on it. Now your wife comes shouting at you. She brings her mother, brother, sister and her co-worker, to tell you the same: "We don't like you eating sandwiches. You should eat banana for breakfast". Will you change your behavior just because it is already 5 people telling you the same thing and raising their voices on you? No, most likely not. You might just get upset and in certain point of time you will start ignoring them.

Majority of the comments and complaints have been already acknowledged by developers. What I find boring though is the persistence and negative nature of some topics on these forums.

I get what you're saying, but its not the best example.

Eating a banana or a sandwich, for the most part, only affects you. So if you choose to ignore your family's advice, it has no effect on them. They might not approve, but ultimately you eating a sandwich has nothing to do with them.

This game is different. People are putting their money into D3P's pockets. People are committing their time to D3P's game and people are voicing their concerns or their desires to make the game better than it is now.

A better comparison would be this:

Your boss comes into a meeting and says that he thinks we should approach this new project in a certain way.
You think you have a better way to do it. You talk to your co workers and they all agree with you.
You all get together and talk to your boss about your idea. Everyone in the company agrees that your idea is better and more productive. They are all experienced in the field in which you all work and are using their professional judgement to decide that your option to approach this project is better.

Your boss stands up from behind his desk, wipes the doughnut crumbs off his chest and promptly tells you all to get the hell out of his office. We're doing it his way and that's that.


Now, in this scenario, the decision very clearly affects everyone involved. It isn't just an arbitrary thing that only affects D3P and we're butting in our unwanted opinions. This is a scenario where the decision made impacts you, me, D3P and all our other players/co workers.

So the question is: is that boss a good boss just because he's being bull headed? Or is he just alienating the people he needs in order to do his own job, ultimately leading to the possibility of catastrophic failure on this new project?

Dartmaster01

I would upvote but.............

h4n1s wrote:

I noticed very interesting pattern on these forums: The more you complain the higher reputation rating you get.

Unknown

onimus wrote:

You all get together and talk to your boss about your idea. Everyone in the company agrees that your idea is better and more productive. They are all experienced in the field in which you all work and are using their professional judgement to decide that your option to approach this project is better.

That's making some pretty strong assumptions about people who don't actually work for D3/demiurge, and simply cannot know what is really going on with the "boss".

For example: people complain about gamble packs. They complain here, they complain in another game that I play. But I talk to the devs of that game and what they're telling me is that money talks. The people buying gamble packs are far, far outnumbering the people complaining about them; but the purchasers have nothing to complain about, so you don't even hear from them.

h4n1s

onimus wrote:

h4n1s wrote:

onimus wrote:

So the question is: is that boss a good boss just because he's being bull headed? Or is he just alienating the people he needs in order to do his own job, ultimately leading to the possibility of catastrophic failure on this new project?

Your scenario is good and I agree. I am not saying 'stop raising valid suggestions to improve the game'. Keep on doing it - but do it in clever way, don't just whine about the game. Go to Suggestions forum, formulate your idea and the crowd will support it by upvoting it based on rule of thumb I suggest. But if we'll up vote every single complaint (and many of them are just about the same thing, generally based on assumptions like D3 is only cash grabbing-conspiracy based company), then it will again become a spit in a sea of complaints. Help the D3 to recognize good suggestions from silly whining.

Got my point?

jojeda654

I will preface what I am about to say by acknowledging that I fully agree with your point of view. Starting a new thread for current events nets you about 5 thumbs up if you're lucky, even if you update the thread with the rewards in a timely fashion! Won't have time to update the thread for X reason? Expect at least one complaint. Myself? I frequently post upcoming Daily Rewards, yet I only recently broke past 100 rep.

Downvote a post? Except a retaliation, at best. At worst, you get called out on it, and then the thread is derailed in to "I'm entitled to my own opinion!" arguments. (I hate that phrase. Sure, everyone should be able to have an opinion. It doesn't give you the right to automatically assume that you are correct, and that the opposing view should be immediately dismissed. Nor that you even have the right to express your opinion, and do so in a rude fashion.)

And now to the point of my reply:

h4n1s wrote:

Will you change your behavior just because it is already 5 people telling you the same thing and raising their voices on you? No, most likely not. You might just get upset and in certain point of time you will start ignoring them.

I find this quite contradicting. In the same way that the devs might become numb to the complaints, your demands for refrain from disillusioned players might also encourage them to become more vocal. You are not the first person to notice the large amount of complaint threads, yet they keep popping up.

h4n1s

jojeda654 wrote:

And now to the point of my reply:

h4n1s wrote:

Will you change your behavior just because it is already 5 people telling you the same thing and raising their voices on you? No, most likely not. You might just get upset and in certain point of time you will start ignoring them.

I find this quite contradicting. In the same way that the devs might become numb to the complaints, your demands for refrain from disillusioned players might also encourage them to become more vocal. You are not the first person to notice the large amount of complaint threads, yet they keep popping up.

hm a bit of brainstorming here - Why don't we create one topic and one topic only which we will stick and call it "Community wishlist"? - there's gonna be a moderator ensuring the opening post will be regularly updated with - let's call it top 20 subjects - consolidated view. We will ensure Hi-Fi our new community manager is aware of this Topic and we'll ask them to comment each of those top 20 subjects with D3 statement (like it is in consideration, this is not going to happen, this is already in testing etc etc.). Having this we might eliminate big bunch of repetitive complains and give transparency to player base. Any thoughts on this one?

Unknown

People don't conform to a specific use for those buttons, they'll just click 'upvote' if they either agree with the point, or like the content.

If D3/Demi actually acknowledged and fully responded to this stuff then perhaps people wouldn't feel the need to upvote so much. Take the EU end-time issue, I think around 30% my post count is devoted to that problem yet in 9 months there have been two (?) D3 responses to the problem:

9 months ago:
"We're aware of the issue, and are looking into it"

A week ago:
"We're aware of the issue, and are discussing it"

Is it hardly any shock that people are using upvotes to try to draw more attention to ongoing issues? There's no point coming up with helpful solutions (and there have been MANY to this issue) if D3 aren't doing anything about it.

Unknown

While I agree some what, the line between valid and invalid criticism is blurry. I agree there's way too many baby tears threads that get upvotes, with people not seeing the bigger picture, nor the nuances of things. Anti-whining posts on whine threads have a minor tendency to get downvoted. Have been trying to upvote rational arguments against whining.

Notable Examples:
I can't get enough 3* even if I pay for it VS This game is too P2W
[Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/.../Sentry] is too powerful! => Wah, you nerfed [Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/...]
I can't get 1st because other people pay more money, are willing to play constantly and I'm not, are better players, wah, D3 should give more rewards.
New content! => Team-ups suck and aren't well thought out
Booster pack % are too low VS Everyone uses the same heroes!

Unknown

Where I admit I have had my complaining days I feel like I mostly try to stay in the positive, and try to encourage good suggestions all around. Sure my rep is not astronomical like Nonce and TU1 but I feel like I am doing pretty well. I think being prolific helps.

And I love the idea of having a weekly(?) list of suggestions, concerns, complaints or ideas to have our new community manager try to get at the least some comment or status update about. I think one of the troubles is few people frequent the suggestions and feedback subforum compared to general, and the quality threads that do start in general often get complained about for "being in the wrong forum" even though the ones that start there get 4x the views and comments as anything started properly in S&F does.

_RiO_

daibar wrote:

While I agree some what, the line between valid and invalid criticism is blurry. I agree there's way too many baby tears threads that get upvotes, with people not seeing the bigger picture, nor the nuances of things. Anti-whining posts on whine threads have a minor tendency to get downvoted. Have been trying to upvote rational arguments against whining.

Notable Examples:
I can't get enough 3* even if I pay for it VS This game is too P2W
[Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/.../Sentry] is too powerful! => Wah, you nerfed [Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/...]
I can't get 1st because other people pay more money, are willing to play constantly and I'm not, are better players, wah, D3 should give more rewards.
New content! => Team-ups suck and aren't well thought out
Booster pack % are too low VS Everyone uses the same heroes!

I can't get enough 3* even if I pay for it VS This game is too P2W
Yes, the drop rate is ridiculously low. This stretches out the game time. It has to stretch out the game time, because collecting characters is the only goal the game offers. New storyline segments come once every blue moon (seriously; it's been how long now?) and the game offers nothing in the form of puzzle challenges or other types of play modes. It's always the same game, whether in PvP or PvE.
Likewise, yes; because the entire game centers on PvP (even PvE is competition against other player rosters) the game is extremely sensitive to P2W where people with deep pockets buy themselves into covers. It happens. (Though really; the real P2W factor are probably shields and boosts.)

[Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/.../Sentry] is too powerful! => Wah, you nerfed [Rags/Spidey/Daken/CMags/...]
Those characters were/are too powerful, in many ways breaking the game. (The spidey and magneto 'exploits' are the reason Lv 395 opponents and runaway scaling came to be.) But likewise, losing such a character when your entire roster is built around it will completely cut off your winnings as well and will leave you stranded with a skyrocketed PvP MMR or PvE personal scaling factor to normalize before you can start competing again.

I can't get 1st because other people pay more money, are willing to play constantly and I'm not, are better players, wah, D3 should give more rewards.
Same P2W argument. And it's actually valid. Shield hopping, boosts, health-packs and maxed Sentry. That is all.
As for willing to play constantly; that's the rubberband vs grinding debate. Both valid angles. The solution, though we haven't stumbled upon one yet, will probably turn out to be a complete paradigm shift that avoids the negatives of both ends.

New content! => Team-ups suck and aren't well thought out
There was nothing broken about environment tiles. The abilities themselves just needed tuning. If anything their removal and the additions of team-ups actually lessened the amount of game content, as right now all the arenas play the same and are really just different wallpapers. The strategic aspect of picking an arena on which you had an edge is gone as well, lessening that aspect of the game too. In return we get recycled character-skill-in-a-can and the AI pulls random ones on us, making it impossible to apply any kind of strategy. Sure, we get to carry three additional one-off skills into a match. Big whoop. They're all powered by the same team-up tiles you'll never collect enough of.

Booster pack % are too low VS Everyone uses the same heroes!
Both true. Pack % are low. You have less than 4% chance of pulling a 3* from most packs, iirc. It's just ridiculously bad value for money. And yes; everyone with a powerful enough roster to win covers from events will work on building up the same proven powerhouses. Because those powerhouses work and the other characters do not. (The game has enormous balance issues.)
Both valid complaints, though completely unrelated. So I'm wondering why you're tossing them together here.


Next time look at actual motivation and you'll notice that even though the complaints themselves may be conflicting, the underlying problems causing those complaints are not.

h4n1s

That's kinda funny... whining in this thread... who would have guessed it

Spoit

DrUnpleasant wrote:

People don't conform to a specific use for those buttons, they'll just click 'upvote' if they either agree with the point, or like the content.

If D3/Demi actually acknowledged and fully responded to this stuff then perhaps people wouldn't feel the need to upvote so much. Take the EU end-time issue, I think around 30% my post count is devoted to that problem yet in 9 months there have been two (?) D3 responses to the problem:

9 months ago:
"We're aware of the issue, and are looking into it"

A week ago:
"We're aware of the issue, and are discussing it"

Is it hardly any shock that people are using upvotes to try to draw more attention to ongoing issues? There's no point coming up with helpful solutions (and there have been MANY to this issue) if D3 aren't doing anything about it.

Exactly!!!

There was minor griping back during the rags nerf, but because IceIX was actually still active, rather than checking in only 1 day a month, at least there was some justifications offered, and the illusion that they were at least listening.

It was only after they went incommunicado for months on end, not even sticking around long than it took to drop patch notes with controversial changes before retreating, that the forums really started to get toxic. Really, if it weren't for nonce holding down the fort against the endless waves of spam, despite their continued to reluctance to appoint any of the new volunteers to help mod, these forums would have been dead and buried like half a year ago, like the official DU forums were

Unknown

I agree with most of the comments on my post, but not the team-up one. Were environmental tiles broken? Yes, we all agreed there. Are team-ups better? Maybe only marginally. I end up not using team-ups in most battles, and I'm sure it's partially cannibalizing the boost revenue. No strategy is a little bit of a hyperbole, but it felt that way as they were too powerful for the AI in the beginning. Now they are too weak. If anything they listened to the community too much when trying to rebalance team-ups, eg, accounting too much for whiners.

Particularly with the last balancing change, it seems they are listening, but are encompassed in a huge machine where it takes months for anything major to get pushed out, and things that don't see ROI don't get implemented.

Back to the original problem, part of the issue is that reputation takes awhile to accumulate unless you are willing to post polarizing comments. This makes down-voting less common than, say reddit, and thus not used as often later on when you do finally get the ability. You almost have a youtube like problem where troll comments rise to the top.

Unknown

h4n1s wrote:

That's kinda funny... whining in this thread... who would have guessed it

It is deliciously ironic that you made a thread about complaining/whining getting upvotes which is, in itself, a COMPLAINT/WHINE about people upvoting complaint threads .

Kind of agree with you, kind of don't. You give the impression every complaint goes green when, in reality, people tend to upvote more heavily the more complete and useful complaints about x/y/z. That would be the specific posts that are most worthwhile for a person skimming the thread to read..... so that seems to be a good use of the upvoting system.

As far as goodbye threads getting upvoted that's more of a fair well gift but I don't see a big issue in it.

over_clocked

why did the forum hate mechgouki then??

h4n1s

IceIX wrote:

Totally understand the sentiment, but creating a new thread on it doesn't help. It only clutters up the boards.

from http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16101

So there's another way how to approach this repetitive complaining, which rather than community voting utilizes Mods and Devs ability to lock topics on this forum. Anyway, I like it as well, it leads to similar result.