Edge effects

Nonce Equitaur 2

There are various characters that get promises in their abilities which aren't fulfilled due to the edge.

Wolverine (X-Force) - Destroys 9 tiles in a 5×5 X-shaped pattern.
Beast -- Creates a 3 turn Blue Countdown tile that, when activated, converts 4 surrounding basic tiles
Punisher - Destroys a 3x3 group of tiles
Magneto MN - Converts a random Blue tile into a 1 turn Countdown tile that destroys the 9 surrounding tiles.
Magneto MN - Destroy a 3x3 block around the Countdown tile.

Unfortunately, often these powers are centered on edge tiles. That makes X-Force a v-force, ^-force, >-force, or <-force, and doesn't deliver the promised 9 tiles.
Beast often converts only 1 or 2 tiles.

One fix would be to center edge effects on the central 4, 16, or 36 tiles. Another possibility is to let players chose the center tile.

CrookedKnight

I realize that with countdown tiles the decision of whether to let the player pick the target is an important part of balancing the move because it affects how likely the tile is to be matched away. And we can control the placement of Beast's and Magneto's powers to some extent by not using them when there's a blank blue/red tile in a corner. But with something like X-Force or Punisher's moves, where the effect is instant and placed completely at random, there's no good reason to allow the move to "fail" like this.

over_clocked

AI Hood and GSBW also like to aim at corners with their Pistols and Rifle.

Unknown

Bit of a hi-jacked thread but this discussion happened before recently: http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14747

Lerysh wrote:

I've always thought the AI should pick targets for 3x3 abilities by outlawing the outer row. Even random ones like Judgement. Power says it destroys 9 blocks, let it destroy 9 blocks, and not 4 by picking a corner. Slight defensive boost to Punisher and Hood and MNM. Maybe a couple others.

Lerysh wrote:

The code to exclude the outside rim of tiles couldn't be THAT hard, and would see a great improvement on those abillities when used by the AI. It's funny enough when AI Hood overlaps Twin Pistols, but to get 4 AP for one shot is just cruel.

Lerysh wrote:

Even if all abilities use the same "pick a random spot" any ability with a 3x3 can use a small loop.

Done=false
While (notDone=True)
If (picked tile on outer edge) pick again
else Done=True

There, done. Put that in every 3x3 tile pick ability (in actual code form and not just a logic list) and it will start selecting smarter tiles, albeit at a small delay as the function call goes multiple times, but it seems they are looking for delay anyway so... that's good right?

scottee wrote:

Oh, they could have programmed it that way. It's intentional. They've stated previously that smarter AI made players lose too much. Which equals quitting. So they made the AI dumber on purpose.

Naked-Pimp wrote:

^ yeah i think they mentioned it about how the AI was always taking advantage of connecting 5 tiles together whenever possible, which naturally caused a lot of cascading and damage... which is why the AI sometimes misses connecting Critical tiles or 5 tiles together when its not in a straight line...

I agree with the OP, but consensus was making the AI less dumb is equivalent to oppressing the casual gamer.

IamTheDanger

And I thought it just my **** luck. This happen to me all the time and it bugs the **** outta me. Especially with Beast. Ai places tiles on the edge every single time.

Except once. I only had 2 blue tiles on the board and both were in the middle (ish) of the board. But that happens far too rarely to be of much help. Please do something about this devs.

JJ

Unknown

Can't they code it so it places in a place where it will be max effective? Like X placement tile must be placed X tiles away from the edge?

Doesn't need to be the best place on the board, but would be nice if it at least was in an effective spot to simulate non-stupid play.

Probably a bit more coding than random tile though.

CrookedKnight

I agree with the OP, but consensus was making the AI less dumb is equivalent to oppressing the casual gamer.

Similar topics, but not quite the same. Whether the AI should be able to aim powers as well as a human does is a separate question from whether powers that are always randomly targeted should be able to misfire when a human player uses them.

scottee

I think leaving random as random keeps fine with the comic book connection. In the middle of a fight, sometimes you fire that rocket and a loan henchman on the edge of the battle field near no one. Sure it's overkill and it would be more strategic to find a target with in a position where you'd take out several, and not just one, but in comic book fights, it doesn't always go like that. Random and collateral damage is pretty much a given.

Unknown

15 tile cascade would be too strong if the center is never on the edges and then the ability would have to be nerfed later. It might even be too strong right now but at least you can't know for sure how many tiles you're going to get.

Nonce Equitaur 2

For Wolverine's 5x5, I either want to center it myself (preferred), or want it centered on one of 16 central tiles so that really is a 5x5 block with an X shape.

That way, I have a 50/50 change of knocking out 5 of Sentry's 16 World Rupture tiles.

If Wolverine had gone to a 7x7 X-shape like before, it would have been even better for messing with Sentry.

Unknown

The X shape cascade is likely the second strongest type of cascade in the game for a fixed number of tiles and it'd be way too strong to let the player pick the center, or even ensuring the center is always out of edges. Unstoppable Crash is usable as a power in Balance of Power, and it destroys 16 tiles at random versus X shape for 15 but better cascade opportunities because you don't want to destroy adjacent tiles when creating a cascade.

Mawtful

For XForce, the ability does state that it destroys a specific number of tiles before describing the shape/formation. I'm raising this as a bug, since the ability has yet to destroy the correct number of tiles.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

Wolverine X-Force. Destroys 9 tiles in a 5x5 X-shaped pattern.

The power sometimes centers on an edge, so it currently destroys 5 tiles in a 3x5 V pattern, a 4x5 lopsided X pattern, or the result as described.

The 3x5 V pattern shouldn't be possible the way the ability is implemented - if anyone spots it, could they send me a screenshot?. The 4x5 lopsided pattern will be fixed in a future patch.

Issue being addressed.

Needs to be addressed for Beast as well.

Unknown

Mawtful wrote:

For XForce, the ability does state that it destroys a specific number of tiles before describing the shape/formation. I'm raising this as a bug, since the ability has yet to destroy the correct number of tiles.

Punisher's ability says it destroys 3X3 area but it often fails to destroy that many tiles if it picks the edges so I'm not seeing any difference here.

There are some abilities that will try to destroy the listed number tiles, like Magnetic Flux. Even if it's on an edge or a corner the shape of the destruction changes to hit the stated tiles, so it can clearly be done if needed, so I assume the abilities that don't do that are intended to be less than optimal outcome by design.

mischiefmaker

Wait what? I've only seen Magnetic Flux go off maybe three times ever, but I'm pretty sure if the 5x5 version is on the outer edge, it doesn't give you a different shape. Same for his blue.

Unknown

mischiefmaker wrote:

Wait what? I've only seen Magnetic Flux go off maybe three times ever, but I'm pretty sure if the 5x5 version is on the outer edge, it doesn't give you a different shape. Same for his blue.

I could be imagining things since I used Magnetic Flux about 3 times ever too, but I swear it did more than the 15 if it was on the edge which would be the case if it just centered around the tile for a 5X5.

CrookedKnight

I've been using it pretty frequently since I'm in 2* land and running a lot of Mags+Storm, and yeah, it gets cut off by the edge of the board just like everything else. So if it's on the side you get a 5-tile-high thin rectangle, or whatever.

Unknown

CrookedKnight wrote:

I've been using it pretty frequently since I'm in 2* land and running a lot of Mags+Storm, and yeah, it gets cut off by the edge of the board just like everything else. So if it's on the side you get a 5-tile-high thin rectangle, or whatever.

Or, which has happened to me on numerous occasions, it chooses a corner tile or edge tile next to the corner and only 9/12 tiles detonate instead of the 25 max...

Jasonzakibe

CrookedKnight wrote:

And we can control the placement of Beast's and Magneto's powers to some extent by not using them when there's a blank blue/red tile in a corner.

Beast actually creates a blue, he doesn't overwrite existing ones.

I Vote for the pacman solution; powers should overlap the edge.

Unknown

That would actually be pretty awesome

mjh

simple fix would be to adjust it to compensate for edge placement. example





is a 3x3 tile with being the affected tiles and being the source/CD tile

If placed near the edge then adjust accordingly





very simple for D3 to fix this