I'm Excited About Changes, But There Are 3 Problems

Unknown

For a large part, I'm greatly excited about the buffs and nerfs. I'm excited because there are currently all these great characters that I would have such a blast using.

Unfortunately, there are three obstacles that preclude his.

1. Without a Sentry would nerf, I'm forced to choose between using Sentry in PVP or not doing well in PVP.

2. With the current defense mechanism, the last team I play with becomes my defensive team. Therefore, if I don't use my best team, there will be a price to pay. I really wish our defense team would be the team we won the most matches with in each PVP (and resets at the start of another PVP). This way we can play with other teams without having to choose our offense team based on who we want our defensive team to be each time we fought a match.

3. The retaliations are the third concern. If we did not have to worry about retaliation point losses (or the point losses not being so bad), we could play whoever we want without worry about retalations. However, like the defense mechanism, we are forced to play teams that we think won't be retaliated against. So, unfortunately, we cannot play just any line up we think would be fun or interesting to play.

To me, these are the three things that need to be addressed. MPQ has fashioned some great characters at this point. I really hope you will take the actions necessary for us to use those characters...and have fun!

Unknown

Nerf Sentry now, Hulk after, Thor after that, etc etc. Wonder why DOTA doesn't need so many nerfs... oh wait.

Unknown

sorcered wrote:

Nerf Sentry now, Hulk after, Thor after that, etc etc. Wonder why DOTA doesn't need so many nerfs... oh wait.

When you get to the top of PVP, there's only one character. Sentry. Players aren't shield hopping with Hulk, Thor, or anyone else; they may be on the team, but they are not the driving force.

Twysta

I was really expecting to come into this thread and read something about female dogs.
Oh well.

Unknown

stephen43084 wrote:

sorcered wrote:

Nerf Sentry now, Hulk after, Thor after that, etc etc. Wonder why DOTA doesn't need so many nerfs... oh wait.

When you get to the top of PVP, there's only one character. Sentry. Players aren't shield hopping with Hulk, Thor, or anyone else; they may be on the team, but they are not the driving force.

The point is - unless they nerf everybody, there'll always be a top dog. Neutering that top dog will lead to another dog going on top, etc. Shield hopping will still happen, scores will be a lil' lower.

Twysta

In my day there was no such thing as shield hopping or shields. We just brute forced it.

Unknown

sorcered wrote:

stephen43084 wrote:

sorcered wrote:

Nerf Sentry now, Hulk after, Thor after that, etc etc. Wonder why DOTA doesn't need so many nerfs... oh wait.

When you get to the top of PVP, there's only one character. Sentry. Players aren't shield hopping with Hulk, Thor, or anyone else; they may be on the team, but they are not the driving force.

The point is - unless they nerf everybody, there'll always be a top dog. Neutering that top dog will lead to another dog going on top, etc. Shield hopping will still happen, scores will be a lil' lower.

There is a difference between top dog and overpowered. Let's be honest, you'd be ib the minority of you believe sentry is not overpowered.

Secondly, let's say you are right. What would you suggest then to make it where more characters are playable?

I seriously want to play with all these great characters in PvP, and I'm open to anything that will let us do that and have fun.

Unknown

Twysta wrote:

In my day there was no such thing as shield hopping or shields. We just brute forced it.

Lol...I hope you're not saying your "day" is over.

Unknown

I agree with what's been said above.

No one has any skill full boosting, playing Hood/Sentry, kill in 3 turns, and shield hop.

Yet, if you want to be in the Top 5 lately, that's what you are playing.

And now, Top players go as high as 2300 points in a PvP ? What's the point ?

El_Dude

As a recent convert to the church of Sentry+Daken+AP boost, I have to agree he needs a big time balancing. Easy wins that require no skill at all. World Rupture by itself is manageable but add in the strike tiles and the match is over.

I'd gladly trade the easy, empty wins for a character that was less destructive to himself and his team. I basically only use him for a quick win in PVP.

Unknown

S&V has your "3 Problems" RIGHT HERE

Vitalbird

Twysta wrote:

I was really expecting to come into this thread and read something about female dogs.
Oh well.

I think you are 96 problems short.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

S&V has your "3 Problems" RIGHT HERE

Call me old fashioned, I don't like to mix my s with my v.

IamTheDanger

Maybe D3 can do a PvP event with NO boosts, NO health packs, and NO shields allowed. Just skill, talent, and "brute force". Then we'd see who really is the best, (not me for sure, but somebody). If the players that are putting up these high numbers still finish at the top, then no one would ever be able say anything again, (of course, they would anyway).

. All characters at same level like BoP, (but not 270, maybe make everyone lvl 150 or so). That's something I'd love to see. Even if it's nothing more than 2 day event. It wouldn't even be hard to do. All they need do is take BoP, lower the levels, block usage of all shields and boosts. All done. Not sure how they can block health packs though.

Unknown

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

Maybe D3 can do a PvP event with NO boosts, NO health packs, and NO shields allowed. Just skill, talent, and "brute force". Then we'd see who really is the best, (not me for sure, but somebody). If the players that are putting up these high numbers still finish at the top, then no one would ever be able say anything again, (of course, they would anyway).

. All characters at same level like BoP, (but not 270, maybe make everyone lvl 150 or so). That's something I'd love to see. Even if it's nothing more than 2 day event. It wouldn't even be hard to do. All they need do is take BoP, lower the levels, block usage of all shields and boosts. All done. Not sure how they can block health packs though.

That'd be more of an event of 'whoever plays first loses' if the point structure is the same because the guys playing first would be fighting guys just as hard but are worth less points compared to the guys who play later, so it'd be a huge waiting game.

I think in one of the thread IceIX said boosts might be going away in the long term but they got nothing concrete here. I'm guessing they're waiting for at least this round of changes to go in before the next set of bad news kick in. Boosts are an incredibly disruptive force to balance, and from what IceIX said it doesn't even make them a lot of money. I think shields are reasonable compromise between P2W and sanity check. If there are no boosts and no Sentry, you'd have a hard time getting 3 games in before you're hit again so shields will be used primarily to preserve your score which is its intended function as opposed to a springboard for arbitarily high score as long as you have money.

OnesOwnGrief

What's doing well in PvP? If my alliance does top 100 and I make at least top 25, I call that doing well.

FaerieMyst

Without a Sentry would nerf, I'm forced to choose between using Sentry in PVP or not doing well in PVP.

Really? I'm not. I rarely use Sentry in PVP and the only time I don't do well is when I choose not to. There are about ten ways to beat Sentry.

I really don't like Sentry. It's an irrational prejudice because he isn't real and therefore the level of his dysfunction shouldn't matter. I can't understand why his fellow characters haven't done an intervention.

Unknown

FaerieMyst wrote:

Without a Sentry would nerf, I'm forced to choose between using Sentry in PVP or not doing well in PVP.

Really? I'm not. I rarely use Sentry in PVP and the only time I don't do well is when I choose not to. There are about ten ways to beat Sentry.

I really don't like Sentry. It's an irrational prejudice because he isn't real and therefore the level of his dysfunction shouldn't matter. I can't understand why his fellow characters haven't done an intervention.

It's not about beating Sentry. It's about playing faster than the entire rest of your MMR.

SnowcaTT

Twysta wrote:

In my day there was no such thing as shield hopping or shields. We just brute forced it.

I almost wish it was this way still. Retals and sheild-hopping has made the last 8 hours the only hours that matter in the event. As someone without Sentry/Daken/Patch builds (not 3* maxed folks), once I hit 500 I can't find anyone worth points until those final eight hours, when everyone finally pushes. Anyone I hit before that point will likely just hit me for retaliation. I can't sit at that level, it won't top 100. The only option is to make sure my roster is healthy, my health packs are full, and I can play the final two hours of the event. For the Devs to say "well, you can shield a day early!" -- not if you are 2*, you can't get enough points a day early and make shielding (super HP costly for 2* at that point) worthwhile.

I enjoy Balance of Power, where it feels much more brute force (less retaliations) throughout the event. I've just used the Juggy/Ares/x team every time it is healthy, and gotten many fewer retaliations and won several of those, I've sat in top 20 throughout event so far. But that was part of the problem the OP stated, playing only the best team every time or you'll get retaliated against.

Retaliations based on point values instead of MMR values perhaps is the problem? When 3* that generally finishes at 900 can hit a 2* that generally finishes at 600 for 40 points early on, it doesn't make any sense for the 2* to push early. But the 2* MUST push a bit early, not enough characters to grind for a long time later - it just makes us fodder for the 3*'s that know it's not worth the effort to start early.