Team-Ups: Game Complexity vs Depth

noobprime

For me as a player, the issue really comes down to the classical depth vs complexity argument. Comparing the game pre and post Team-Ups (TUs), the addition has led to a miniscule increase in depth, but a very large increase in game complexity. And for most players, this is an imbalance going the wrong way. Part of the inherent beauty of a match-3 game is its simple while being deep at the same time. The majority of the game as constructed is a sprint, the PVP meta skews towards quick games, and adding a component that requires significant time to select while often not being used at all is frankly ... puzzling. Changing TUs by nerfing the AI use (limit 1 TU and no Sentry/Juggs) is a band-aid that doesn't actually make TUs meaningful.

If TUs are here to stay, and it looks like it, there needs to be a strategic reason why people NEED to take time to equip a TU. The game as currently implemented doesn't require it. A humble suggestion: A Daily Quest. Could be an epic boss mode (Galactus, Thanos), or hyper buffed NPCs (Ares with 2 green feeders), or super MPQ teams (Daken, Sentry, Hood). Something that is actually very difficult to beat so that TUs would be a necessity. Something that would make the added complexity 'worth' the time.

TL;DR: TUs are too complex for the current game modes. Add a game mode where it would make sense to use them. Please.

Unknown

I've said it all before. Tup's made the game more like chess.

I think ai should have 3 Tup's. While ai should not have the supernovas, it should be available as an ai.

Instead the ai starts the game without their queen and one of their rooks.

Unknown

Team-ups are great for defense! at times I think they're cheap or irritating but they add more challenge. On offense they're infinitely more tedious and work than I want to ever bother with, especially with the implementation approach of monetize it first, figure it out later.

Teamups really should allow you to use abilities of anyone on your roster, maybe at half effectiveness - unlimited times with a 1 team-up equip slot. If effectiveness isn't limited, perhaps have it cost 50% more team up points than the original color.

This **** about finding a teamup to use one time for 1 battle and sending it out to alliance members at the cost of your own character or (Buy your character back) so the friend can use an ability once is a complete joke and totally pathetic in thought.

I love the idea of adding abilities you can use for characters you'd never touch in pvp in a million years but to make it cost what it does or time it takes to set up everything for each fight is a joke.

A nice base concept with terrible execution and I hope it's addressed because the game can definitely be better with teamups - just not how they're currently set up

What if team-up abilities were earned like card covers for the alliance reward or something of that nature but these were permanent?



Oh and the delete buttons for teamups on the iPhone is way too small

Pylgrim

stephen43084 wrote:

I've said it all before. Tup's made the game more like chess.

I think ai should have 3 Tup's. While ai should not have the supernovas, it should be available as an ai.

Instead the ai starts the game without their queen and one of their rooks.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Do you, or most players start /every single game/ game with 3 T-Us intending to use them all? Do you intentionally make white matches all the time? The answer is no. Following your metaphor, 3 T-Us, it's like in addition to having all chess pieces, the AI brought also a shotgun and at any point just shot off a huge chunk of your board. Trying, in vain, to stop it from firing the shotgun (denying white) only made your actual chess playing much weaker.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

stephen43084 wrote:

I've said it all before. Tup's made the game more like chess.

I think ai should have 3 Tup's. While ai should not have the supernovas, it should be available as an ai.

Instead the ai starts the game without their queen and one of their rooks.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Do you, or most players start /every single game/ game with 3 T-Us intending to use them all? Do you intentionally make white matches all the time? The answer is no. Following your metaphor, 3 T-Us, it's like in addition to having all chess pieces, the AI brought also a shotgun and at any point just shot off a huge chunk of your board. Trying, in vain, to stop it from firing the shotgun (denying white) only made your actual chess playing much weaker.

It's a simile comparison. It is not a metaphor, much less a literal comparison.

It simply meant the have had become more cerebral and strategic, as well as with ai having less Tup's it was not an equal playing field.

Unknown

I think teamups are a good idea if there was a way to select your team ups quickly. I'll even take 3 random ones at half of my roster's level because I'm sure not going to select 3 manually.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

I think teamups are a good idea if there was a way to select your team ups quickly. I'll even take 3 random ones at half of my roster's level because I'm sure not going to select 3 manually.

I think they said the next update will remember Tup's like boosts now.

GuntherBlobel

noobprime wrote:

A humble suggestion: A Daily Quest. Could be an epic boss mode (Galactus, Thanos), or hyper buffed NPCs (Ares with 2 green feeders), or super MPQ teams (Daken, Sentry, Hood). Something that is actually very difficult to beat so that TUs would be a necessity. Something that would make the added complexity 'worth' the time.

TL;DR: TUs are too complex for the current game modes. Add a game mode where it would make sense to use them. Please.

Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Here's a slight modification to your idea. Pre-selected TUs and boosts could provide a nice mechanism for the devs to build very specific challenges in daily quests. In addition to building in constraints, they could also serve to illustrate winning strategies.

One such challenge could be something like: Here, fight this insanely high level solo Patch! We've provided you with one +3AP boost, one Trickery TU, and one World Rupture TU. Good luck!

Thats sounds fun to me.

noobprime

stephen43084 wrote:

I've said it all before. Tup's made the game more like chess.

It added the complexity, but the present game doesn't play like chess, it plays more like checkers

LoreNYC wrote:

Team-ups are great for defense! at times I think they're cheap or irritating but they add more challenge. On offense they're infinitely more tedious and work than I want to ever bother with, especially with the implementation approach of monetize it first, figure it out later.

Well they used to be great for defense, but then they were nerfed. You illustrate my point, they are TOO TEDIOUS and basically unnecessary at present.

Phantron wrote:

I think teamups are a good idea if there was a way to select your team ups quickly. I'll even take 3 random ones at half of my roster's level because I'm sure not going to select 3 manually.

Simplifying the current implementation would decrease the complexity ... which does work. But I advocate increasing the game depth by actually utilizing the added complexity. A gamer can dream!

GuntherBlobel wrote:

In addition to building in constraints, they could also serve to illustrate winning strategies. One such challenge could be something like: Here, fight this insanely high level solo Patch! We've provided you with one +3AP boost, one Trickery TU, and one World Rupture TU. Good luck!

Exactly. The mode would help starting players to understand combinations. Early on most people don't use MagStrom (Marvel Now Magneto and Classic Storm), but they would if they realized how well they synergize. The exact implementation with constraints and such is a detail, how much do you want to hand hold the players or force them to figure things out.

Frankly, I just want a new game mode.

MaxCavalera

stephen43084 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

I think teamups are a good idea if there was a way to select your team ups quickly. I'll even take 3 random ones at half of my roster's level because I'm sure not going to select 3 manually.

I think they said the next update will remember Tup's like boosts now.

If they lock in TU i think i will change it a great deal for me, you could then set up an unorthodox team with a set of 3 teamups and run it out for maybe 3+ matches till you deplete those teamups or characters then switch team and teamups. Every time bleeping time reselecting is just brutal.

Zen808

stephen43084 wrote:

I think ai should have 3 Tup's. While ai should not have the supernovas, it should be available as an ai.

Instead the ai starts the game without their queen and one of their rooks.

The reason I don't like the AI having 3 TUs is that it means AI can use 3 TUs every single match. A player can only earn enough TUs to use an average of 1 TU per match on their own.

Alliance TUs allow you to get enough TUs, in theory, to use 3 every match. But in practice, the long Patrol timers and 3 character per player limit means that you're not likely to get people to send you enough TUs to match the AI's output. So essentially, the player is also playing without a few pieces more often than not.

And then we get into a whole, "well, the AI is stupid, and player goes first so they deserve an advantage" "nuh-uh, because miracle cascades" "that's a myth" "stupid head" "doo doo face" argument. And let's not go there.

Unknown

Some good comments here. I kind of agree that Team ups could be implemented better than they currently are -- I'm willing to give the devs time to get the balance right; it's an interesting game element.

I was okay with the AI getting three team ups, though I must admit that I ate disproportionate number of supernova's and World ruptures. The first time I ever saw Avenger's Assemble was from a team up (I was like WTH!). The AI certainly seemed loaded for big game. I'd be okay with 3 AI team ups, just balanced out on which ones are used. I do think it helps the AI on defense, which isn't a bad thing in my mind as many players share doubt that there is even such thing as a defensive game strategy.

Question. Does anyone know if the AI plays defense with your team using the same team ups that you had equipped in the last fight with that team? If so, that would have positive implications for defensive games and I'd be for that. It allows you to have more control/options over your defense -- leave would be attackers something special

I suppose the idea is that you use on average one team up per match and receive one per match. The problem is I end up using one team up per 5 matches or so because many of the team ups cost quite a bit to use. My fights often are finished before I can collect the AP required to use them, and that's even when I'm trying.

So for me, on balance, I'd have kept 3 AI team ups, with a more random deck when the AI team is random generated, and keeping the team ups you had selected when the AI plays your team on defense. And I'd endorse reducing the cost of team ups a bit to where they are a more economical proposition. They really should offer you a sort of life line or supplement to your offense, not be a millstone around your neck that you have to struggle to use in a standard match.

FaerieMyst

I like the TUs . . . in theory. In actuality, I forget to use them most of the time. Does this mean I'm not a team player?

I agree that not having them reset every time would be an enormous improvement.