So... what the hell is up with matchmaking?

Xiltyn

Spoit wrote:

Except that in this metaphor, the major league players are only being payed as much as the peewee players

Lol, ok, I have to give you that one. True the rewards don't get any better the higher you progress, but what I was meaning is I'm finding it really hard to progress because I'm being matched against people that are figuratively out of my league.

Although, something else that has occurred to me is that this is intentional as it encourages us to buy our way out of it. I mean they have to make a profit somehow, right? Otherwise the game will cease to exist.

GothicKratos

Xiltyn wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Except that in this metaphor, the major league players are only being payed as much as the peewee players

Lol, ok, I have to give you that one. True the rewards don't get any better the higher you progress, but what I was meaning is I'm finding it really hard to progress because I'm being matched against people that are figuratively out of my league.

As the current system is setup (aka one single pool of prizes), how else would you expect it to be? If you're in 2* Land (where I am too), then you shouldn't be able to be in Top 50, it's just not logical. Nor is it logical for them to make separate prize pools for each bracket, because they'd hand out a significant amount of 3* Covers. I could see a separate pool of prizes for each sub-bracket, but it would need to be pretty limited to keep proper value to each element of the game.

Xiltyn wrote:

Although, something else that has occurred to me is that this is intentional as it encourages us to buy our way out of it. I mean they have to make a profit somehow, right? Otherwise the game will cease to exist.

This is very true, as well, As we all know, the 2* transition is a painful and arduous path to travel, and it's easy enough to shell out ten or fifteen dollars a week without even thinking about it to further your progress.

[Edit]

In regards to your initial post, perhaps he is just playing intelligently. Astonishing Wolverine can take you very far in PvP if you're smart about it. I rode (and still ride to a degree) that train very hard. Personally, I found a max 1* Iron Man + 2* Wolerine + PvP meatshield works marvelously for climbing rather quickly for progression prizes without handing out a ton of health packs. Quasi-recently, I have also been using Modern Hawkeye to some sucess, by making him Avoid into the PvP character (because they full heal every round) and having 2* Wolverine tank most of the tiles/damage, since he can self-heal - Hawkeye chips in with his Blue and his match damage on Purple is superb.

Just some food for though. You also have no real idea if he's shield hopping or not (or shielding in general).

Xiltyn

GothicKratos wrote:

As the current system is setup (aka one single pool of prizes), how else would you expect it to be? If you're in 2* Land (where I am too), then you shouldn't be able to be in Top 50, it's just not logical. Nor is it logical for them to make separate prize pools for each bracket, because they'd hand out a significant amount of 3* Covers. I could see a separate pool of prizes for each sub-bracket, but it would need to be pretty limited to keep proper value to each element of the game.

Not entirely true, as the current system is set up the top from each bracket receive the same prizes. Which is why I originally asked why am I fighting those outside my bracket to earn points in my bracket.

GothicKratos wrote:

In regards to your initial post, perhaps he is just playing intelligently. Astonishing Wolverine can take you very far in PvP if you're smart about it. I rode (and still ride to a degree) that train very hard. Personally, I found a max 1* Iron Man + 2* Wolerine + PvP meatshield works marvelously for climbing rather quickly for progression prizes without handing out a ton of health packs. Quasi-recently, I have also been using Modern Hawkeye to some sucess, by making him Avoid into the PvP character (because they full heal every round) and having 2* Wolverine tank most of the tiles/damage, since he can self-heal - Hawkeye chips in with his Blue and his match damage on Purple is superb.

Just some food for though. You also have no real idea if he's shield hopping or not (or shielding in general).

I feel I need to clarify myself here. I am in 2* land with you, and employ basically the same strategies as well. Wolverine/Hawkeye has become one of my favorite combos. Also I do place in the top 50 occasionally, a few times in top 5/25 (if I'm lucky and have the HP to shield). I haven't been below 100 in any event for a couple months now.

All I was trying to say in my original post was that if brackets are determined by MMR for who is equally matched, why am I fighting people that aren't in my bracket? This goes both ways as well, I don't like that I'm matched against 1* teams at the beginning of every event either(although I realize some of those are tank teams trying to lose on purpose because they want the lower ranking for easier reward gain). I feel like I'm picking on a little kid at that point. Then after a while I'm matched against those with equal rosters, which is where I have the most fun because it's challenging. Then later comes the teams I have no chance of beating (249/166/166. aren't a "challenge" they're a statistical impossibility).

Ok, so I'm rambling. Hopefully, you understand what I was trying to say.

GothicKratos

Xiltyn wrote:

Not entirely true, as the current system is set up the top from each bracket receive the same prizes. Which is why I originally asked why am I fighting those outside my bracket to earn points in my bracket.

MMR Tanking, generally speaking. I've also heard that skipping an event can lower your MMR rather efficiently (though this is merely theory/word of mouth), so you may be seeing returning players or players that skipped an event or two to go after something they valued more.

Besides, MMR/ELO is a flawed system, especially, when used on a large scale (simple info here if you're intrigued), so some hiccups are to be expected. It's a delicate balance, and it might as well be particle physics with a couple thousand calculated players. The more you win, the more affect the "K-Factor" has on your overall ELO (this is exponential with repetitive wins), so you get matched with "harder" opponents a.k.a. the 166s. I'm a bit puzzled sometimes by the slope they use, as it seems there is no in between from 2* Land folks and full on 166 teams, but that's the general gist of it.

Xiltyn wrote:

All I was trying to say in my original post was that if brackets are determined by MMR for who is equally matched, why am I fighting people that aren't in my bracket? This goes both ways as well, I don't like that I'm matched against 1* teams at the beginning of every event either(although I realize some of those are tank teams trying to lose on purpose because they want the lower ranking for easier reward gain). I feel like I'm picking on a little kid at that point. Then after a while I'm matched against those with equal rosters, which is where I have the most fun because it's challenging. Then later comes the teams I have no chance of beating (249/166/166. aren't a "challenge" they're a statistical impossibility).

Ok, so I'm rambling. Hopefully, you understand what I was trying to say.

The brackets aren't static, but I understand what you're getting at; it's an odd way to implement things. I can't say I've heard of anything really using MMR/ELO quite in the manner they do here.

Xiltyn

GothicKratos wrote:

MMR Tanking, generally speaking. I've also heard that skipping an event can lower your MMR rather efficiently (though this is merely theory/word of mouth), so you may be seeing returning players or players that skipped an event or two to go after something they valued more.

Ah, something I obviously forgot to include in my original post, usually the teams I question are rated at around 600 points. In this particular instance I experienced today as I said the second place in my bracket was at ~600, but the teams I was being matched against with the same point value were not listed in my leaderboard. Hence prompting the question: why am I fighting outside my bracket to determine the best in my bracket? If it was due to tanking, theoretically, wouldn't that have placed said players into my bracket? Therefore having them show up on the leaderboard.

AXP_isme

I saw that as well, yesterday I was climbing 400-600 and was fighting plenty of teams who had a similar number of points. None of them appeared in my bracket (I could see who was there as there were relatively few people at those scores at that time, it would have been 3-15 ish). Seems a bit strange that you get put in a bucket with these teams for the purposes of inter-ranking but then you don't actually compete directly against them.

MarvelMan

Xiltyn wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

MMR Tanking, generally speaking. I've also heard that skipping an event can lower your MMR rather efficiently (though this is merely theory/word of mouth), so you may be seeing returning players or players that skipped an event or two to go after something they valued more.

Ah, something I obviously forgot to include in my original post, usually the teams I question are rated at around 600 points. In this particular instance I experienced today as I said the second place in my bracket was at ~600, but the teams I was being matched against with the same point value were not listed in my leaderboard. Hence prompting the question: why am I fighting outside my bracket to determine the best in my bracket? If it was due to tanking, theoretically, wouldn't that have placed said players into my bracket? Therefore having them show up on the leaderboard.

You dont want to be fighting just the players in your bracket. Particularly if the brackets are random, as they almost are (aside from sharting). There is a VAST difference between brackets and MMR, which is what you seem to be more concerned about.

GothicKratos

MarvelMan wrote:

Xiltyn wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

MMR Tanking, generally speaking. I've also heard that skipping an event can lower your MMR rather efficiently (though this is merely theory/word of mouth), so you may be seeing returning players or players that skipped an event or two to go after something they valued more.

Ah, something I obviously forgot to include in my original post, usually the teams I question are rated at around 600 points. In this particular instance I experienced today as I said the second place in my bracket was at ~600, but the teams I was being matched against with the same point value were not listed in my leaderboard. Hence prompting the question: why am I fighting outside my bracket to determine the best in my bracket? If it was due to tanking, theoretically, wouldn't that have placed said players into my bracket? Therefore having them show up on the leaderboard.

You dont want to be fighting just the players in your bracket. Particularly if the brackets are random, as they almost are (aside from sharting). There is a VAST difference between brackets and MMR, which is what you seem to be more concerned about.

There is this, but also, I assume this is because of MMR itself - MMR is not bracket-based and it would heavily skew already quasi-unreliable information.

I still question if players have an overall, static, personal MMR that persists outside of events - as I said with my experiences, it seems more like it's a sliding scale in each individual event, but there are of course plenty of stories of "death brackets" out there, so many I just haven't won enough lol.

Bowgentle

GothicKratos wrote:

There is this, but also, I assume this is because of MMR itself - MMR is not bracket-based and it would heavily skew already quasi-unreliable information.

I still question if players have an overall, static, personal MMR that persists outside of events - as I said with my experiences, it seems more like it's a sliding scale in each individual event, but there are of course plenty of stories of "death brackets" out there, so many I just haven't won enough lol.

Personal MMR seems to definitely play a role as to which bracket you are gently nudged into.
In addition to that, there are certain cutoff-points: from 0-200 you usually face seed teams/underleveled 1*/2* teams.
From 200 - 500 you see maxed 2* teams.
From 500 on you see the occasional maxed 3* team mixed with maxed 2*s.
From 700 onwards it's pure maxed 3*s.

MarvelMan

Bowgentle wrote:

In addition to that, there are certain cutoff-points: from 0-200 you usually face seed teams/underleveled 1*/2* teams.
From 200 - 500 you see maxed 2* teams.
From 500 on you see the occasional maxed 3* team mixed with maxed 2*s.
From 700 onwards it's pure maxed 3*s.

This depends on your personal MMR. I have maxed 3* and for some reason Im still seeing non maxed 2*/3* and Im at about 800 pts in Cat-5.

Edit:
I should mention they are generally worth 14-17 points. And it takes 20+ skips to find someone higher than that....but they are still usually non-maxed 3*s.

Edit 2:
I must be in some "death MMR" which is bizarre as I often see you Bowgentle in my queues, but not this one.

GothicKratos

Bowgentle wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

There is this, but also, I assume this is because of MMR itself - MMR is not bracket-based and it would heavily skew already quasi-unreliable information.

I still question if players have an overall, static, personal MMR that persists outside of events - as I said with my experiences, it seems more like it's a sliding scale in each individual event, but there are of course plenty of stories of "death brackets" out there, so many I just haven't won enough lol.

Personal MMR seems to definitely play a role as to which bracket you are gently nudged into.
In addition to that, there are certain cutoff-points: from 0-200 you usually face seed teams/underleveled 1*/2* teams.
From 200 - 500 you see maxed 2* teams.
From 500 on you see the occasional maxed 3* team mixed with maxed 2*s.
From 700 onwards it's pure maxed 3*s.

This is pretty much what I experience every PvP, which is why I don't seem to feel like there's much of a personal MMR standing, or if there is, it's pretty inconsequential in PvP - PvE on the other hand, I haven't experienced it myself, but there is defiantly some weird MMR issues floating around in there (on top of a lack of transparency on how exact things scale in PvE).

MarvelMan

Sounds like your MMR isnt high enough. Just wait.

If I wait a few hours before opening the tourney Ill see 249/166/166 from the start.

Xiltyn

MarvelMan wrote:

You dont want to be fighting just the players in your bracket. Particularly if the brackets are random, as they almost are (aside from sharting). There is a VAST difference between brackets and MMR, which is what you seem to be more concerned about.

Ah, I see. I was under the impression that MMR influenced what bracket you were placed in. I guess that's not the case.

Unknown

What is annoying me is there is no point to shield (maybe if there was a 12 hour I'd be more inclined)... I hit 550 (im a *2*) and start to draw matches I can't win, if I'm just under a day and put up a day shield, and get pushed out of the top 100 & wasted a shield. Or waste a shield because I need time b4 bed & after inwake up & to get back & forth from work. If I accidentally let my shield down for too long I get attacked so much in so short a time there is no way I will ever get what little I had, say screw not & lose the shield (*cough* I have bought some HP but probably will stop because the system is seemingly so set against me it is just a waste of money)

chris0001

Just hit the 500-600 wall!!! Holy ****, spent +/- 600 iso skipping matches because all were 120+ level and I only have two players over 100, (barely). There is no way I can possible beat them so putting up a shield and hoping for the best! I'm a solid 2* transition to 3* and working on it.

GothicKratos

eris-wtga wrote:

What is annoying me is there is no point to shield (maybe if there was a 12 hour I'd be more inclined)... I hit 550 (im a *2*) and start to draw matches I can't win, if I'm just under a day and put up a day shield, and get pushed out of the top 100 & wasted a shield. Or waste a shield because I need time b4 bed & after inwake up & to get back & forth from work. If I accidentally let my shield down for too long I get attacked so much in so short a time there is no way I will ever get what little I had, say screw not & lose the shield (*cough* I have bought some HP but probably will stop because the system is seemingly so set against me it is just a waste of money)

In a manner of speaking, shielding is pretty pointless, in my opinion, unless it's the last day and either; one or two hours before then event ends and you have enough points to likely get you the prize you want (if you ask on the forums, most people can give you a pretty reliable number) or you're shield hopping (and again, in my opinion, you should only be shield hopping if you can get Top 10 or better, so you're not at a complete lose of Hero Points).

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

In a manner of speaking, shielding is pretty pointless, in my opinion, unless it's the last day and either; one or two hours before then event ends and you have enough points to likely get you the prize you want (if you ask on the forums, most people can give you a pretty reliable number) or you're shield hopping (and again, in my opinion, you should only be shield hopping if you can get Top 10 or better, so you're not at a complete lose of Hero Points).

Well that if fine, if it wasn't for the 550 point wall...I usually get attact and lose more than I am able to gain

Xiltyn

Holy what the hell? My girlfriend hit 543 points, set the game down after a match while waiting for a character to heal. Came back after about 20 minutes, to the defeat pop up informing her she just lost 142 points. Looking through all of her retaliation matches, every single one of them was over 120 (with a few maxed teams), while she doesn't have a single character above 94. How the... what the... Are you kidding me? That's just insane, and not fun in the least for anyone to lose that much, that fast.

I've never had this happen... Is it just because everyone wants the Deadpool reward? Or has PvP turned into if you aren't shield hopping, just don't do it?

atomzed

Xiltyn wrote:

Holy what the hell? My girlfriend hit 543 points, set the game down after a match while waiting for a character to heal. Came back after about 20 minutes, to the defeat pop up informing her she just lost 142 points. Looking through all of her retaliation matches, every single one of them was over 120 (with a few maxed teams), while she doesn't have a single character above 94. How the... what the... Are you kidding me? That's just insane, and not fun in the least for anyone to lose that much, that fast.

I've never had this happen... Is it just because everyone wants the Deadpool reward? Or has PvP turned into if you aren't shield hopping, just don't do it?

This pvp is especially brutal bec DP is so sought after. Basically anyone that's worth higher points (in this case, probably 500), they will be hit by people.

That's how the game system is for the past few seasons. Just that the DP rewards exacerbated it a lot. It would be better for the HT pvp (DP pvp we will see ppl aiming for 1100 so it's going to be more competitive than usual).

GothicKratos

eris-wtga wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

In a manner of speaking, shielding is pretty pointless, in my opinion, unless it's the last day and either; one or two hours before then event ends and you have enough points to likely get you the prize you want (if you ask on the forums, most people can give you a pretty reliable number) or you're shield hopping (and again, in my opinion, you should only be shield hopping if you can get Top 10 or better, so you're not at a complete lose of Hero Points).

Well that if fine, if it wasn't for the 550 point wall...I usually get attact and lose more than I am able to gain

Two Options:

A.) Your team isn't well constructed enough to go past that.

B.) Tank your MMR and try to regrind to a higher number.

It could be a bracket problem. It could be an MMR problem. It could be that this event is giving away really new covers and a lot of people are just going really hard.