We need a cover removal option

Deviator1

It's very rare but in some cases certain characters could use less of some covers such as venom using only 4 purple to produce a lot of web tiles or the more prominent IM40. My IM40 is 5/5/3 and level 140, I want to use him at 5/5/2 or maybe if I even wanted 5/5/1 since recharge gets such a low cost. I have no way to do that. I don't mind losing the iso if it pushes the levels back but it would be useful to have something like this rather than just making a new IM40 that I do not have the patience or iso to make.

Just a small suggestion to the devs or voice your opinion on it.

Unknown

As the devs have said that they envision people applying covers and maxing characters, one solution (which would be unpopular, but serve to fix the problem) would be to make Recharge always cost X (say...10), and then each cover you add generates an additional color.
So it would look like this:
Recharge: Power Cost 10
Recharges weapon systems. Creates 3 Countdown tiles that activate after 2 turns, restoring 3 Red AP each. Iron man is then stunned for 2 turns as systems reinitialize.
Level 2: Each countdown tile also restores 3 Blue AP
Level 3: Each countdown tile also restores 3 Green AP
Level 4: Each countdown tile also restores 2 Purple AP
Level 5: Each countdown tile also restores 2 Black AP

Now there's no harm in having a 3rd cover, and it might actually make 4 or 5 cover builds viable.


The unfortunate side effect of some skills becoming more powerful at an increased cost is that it renders that skill nigh unusable at higher levels due to diminishing returns. I keep a 2/5 Black Widow (1*) around because that's seemingly her optimal build. My IM40 is at 2 yellow. I thought about starting another one with just one yellow solely for PVE purposes.

Deviator1

Okay then why not make it cost a crapload then reducing with more covers in the ability? It would be useless at 1 but at 5 becomes very powerful. I know it would break IM40s niche of being a useful 3* with 1 yellow cover but then we would actually want to have more of yellow not less. I love the ability but I have no option to make him optimal since he needs 1 less cover to do so. I'm stuck spending 10 rather than 8

Unknown

So something along the lines of...
1 - restores 3RUG, 2 PB - costs 14
2 - costs 1 less (13)
3 - costs 1 less (12)
4 - costs 2 less (10)
5 - costs 2 less (8)

That could be interesting. Generates 13 AP for 8 AP at 5 covers. Probably too good at that point, would still need adjustments. Hood generates 18 for 15 at 5 covers, but also can take out problem tiles at the same time. So maybe the ultimate price would have to be a bit higher.

Dayv

j12601 wrote:

So something along the lines of...
1 - restores 3RUG, 2 PB - costs 14
2 - costs 1 less (13)
3 - costs 1 less (12)
4 - costs 2 less (10)
5 - costs 2 less (8)

That could be interesting. Generates 13 AP for 8 AP at 5 covers. Probably too good at that point, would still need adjustments. Hood generates 18 for 15 at 5 covers, but also can take out problem tiles at the same time. So maybe the ultimate price would have to be a bit higher.

Actually, that would generate 39AP for 8AP, if you manage to protect all three countdowns.

Unknown

DayvBang wrote:

j12601 wrote:

So something along the lines of...
1 - restores 3RUG, 2 PB - costs 14
2 - costs 1 less (13)
3 - costs 1 less (12)
4 - costs 2 less (10)
5 - costs 2 less (8)

That could be interesting. Generates 13 AP for 8 AP at 5 covers. Probably too good at that point, would still need adjustments. Hood generates 18 for 15 at 5 covers, but also can take out problem tiles at the same time. So maybe the ultimate price would have to be a bit higher.

Actually, that would generate 39AP for 8AP, if you manage to protect all three countdowns.

Ah, right. I always forget you get three of them. Shows how often I bust out the old rust bucket.

simonsez

If a skill is more desirable with fewer covers, the problem is that they've set up the skills poorly, not that there's no option to remove covers. I'd rather have them fix this by addressing the former.

Unknown

I agree. I actually have suggested this before: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7092.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

If a skill is more desirable with fewer covers, the problem is that they've set up the skills poorly, not that there's no option to remove covers. I'd rather have them fix this by addressing the former.

Exactamundo.

Unknown

The change I would love to see for IM40 is let the cost be based on available yellow. Only have 6? recharge gives back reds only, got more than that, it returns more colors, enjoy.

Also it bugs me how recharge works. It should be take a nap then come back stronger than before. As it is now the nap part of the equation comes after all the AP comes flooding in. This is just begging for someone else to utilize all that AP really anyone besides IM40 himself. I can see why stunning first then waiting even longer on countdowns is not ideal but surely they can make his timers work even while he is stunned, right?

Deviator1

Then maybe we need to make this more apparent to them. IM40 isn't useless but he does need some small tweaking not a whole rework.

And yeah I would think that more covers would be better hence why I had 5 in yellow a long time ago lol also before I had enough for red and blue, its just what I had at the time

Unknown

As others have alluded to, this is really a power design problem and not a user interface problem. If every power was universally, undeniably better at 3 covers than it was at 1 or 2 covers, then there would never be any benefit to removing covers. Therefor if the current powers that don't meet that criteria are fixed and no more are created, this problem goes away.

Deviator1

The only ones that have this issue are the ones that gain in cost as you gain covers. No one would complain about GSBW though since hers costs 19 and smacks the entire enemy team for 3k+ and destroys most of the board for more damage.

IM40 hits the entire team and always costs 20 ap. Seems like a weird break in design between character abilities

mischiefmaker

Thugpatrol wrote:

As others have alluded to, this is really a power design problem and not a user interface problem. If every power was universally, undeniably better at 3 covers than it was at 1 or 2 covers, then there would never be any benefit to removing covers. Therefor if the current powers that don't meet that criteria are fixed and no more are created, this problem goes away.

The problem is that making a power "universally, undeniably better" is pretty hard. It assumes that the designers can predict all possible future situations and combinations, which in the best case severely limits design space, and in the worst case is unrealistic.

Take Sacrifice as an example. Reducing the damage done to self has to be "universally, undeniably better", right? Well...what if they wanted to make a future ability that's like CStorm's Tempest, but with a lower %? Then maybe you want the higher self damage to trigger it.

Also, consider that if you allow people to remove covers, that opens up design space to have interesting character builds at fewer than max covers.

Unknown

mischiefmaker wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

As others have alluded to, this is really a power design problem and not a user interface problem. If every power was universally, undeniably better at 3 covers than it was at 1 or 2 covers, then there would never be any benefit to removing covers. Therefor if the current powers that don't meet that criteria are fixed and no more are created, this problem goes away.

The problem is that making a power "universally, undeniably better" is pretty hard. It assumes that the designers can predict all possible future situations and combinations, which in the best case severely limits design space, and in the worst case is unrealistic.
Take Sacrifice as an example. Reducing the damage done to self has to be "universally, undeniably better", right? Well...what if they wanted to make a future ability that's like CStorm's Tempest, but with a lower %? Then maybe you want the higher self damage to trigger it.
Also, consider that if you allow people to remove covers, that opens up design space to have interesting character builds at fewer than max covers.

Granted, when you get into all of the various permutations of powers things get more complicated, and there is usually an exception to every rule. This is not a perfect world, and there are very few perfect solutions, but that doesn't mean that the design of powers can't be such that the chances of benefit for less covers are minimized. Restricting the first three covers to little more than numerical escalation is a pretty safe bet, even though your example already calls that too into some question. They seem to have gone away from powers with variable costs entirely of late, which is where a lot of these issues stem from.

Bottom line, you're right. There are always going to be fringe cases not matter what you do. And if people want to build around those fringe cases, lots of luck, but better design still makes the necessity for a cover removal option almost entirely moot. As for character builds with fewer than max covers? I don't think that's something that you can expect them to ever support. It's just too opposed to how the game works and how they do business.

mischiefmaker

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's a lot less work to implement cover removal (and depending on how they do it might even be a source of revenue), and eliminate any worry about weird fringe case interactions in the future, than to design every future ability in such a way that all abilities continue to be strictly better at higher covers.

You're right in that you can always just have levels 1-3 be numerical escalation so that it's safe to assume every power should always be at level 3, but that's what I was saying about restricting design space -- it's pretty boring.

Unknown

mischiefmaker wrote:

You're right in that you can always just have levels 1-3 be numerical escalation so that it's safe to assume every power should always be at level 3, but that's what I was saying about restricting design space -- it's pretty boring.

To be fair, most powers are already little more than numerical escalation anyway. Back-loading any bells and whistles onto covers 4 and 5 is likely to make build choices less obvious and promote diversity rather than restrict it. If you only get basic functionality for 3 covers and need to upgrade to get something fancy, you may have to think long and hard about which options you really value.

Deviator1

If all the characters had vanilla upgrades till 4 it would be a little boring till you got there. I agree having a big change at 5 is a must but that's another part of design that they either do or dont do. Look at sentry he just loses a little less health with more damage same as the rest of the upgrades. Then look at cstorm, her green may not be an amazing ability but at 5 it doubles how many tiles get destroyed. GSBW hits every enemy, it looks like recent characters dont have that fun big difference.Lazy cap and lazy thor just do bigger numbers with the same abilities on red to cap and green for thor.

Abilities like recharge are fun but that massive ap change makes it less viable and IM40 has issues already. I think at least having the ability to remove a cover if you really want to wouldn't be a bad thing.

Unknown

Deviator1 wrote:

If all the characters had vanilla upgrades till 4 it would be a little boring till you got there. I agree having a big change at 5 is a must but that's another part of design that they either do or dont do. Look at sentry he just loses a little less health with more damage same as the rest of the upgrades. Then look at cstorm, her green may not be an amazing ability but at 5 it doubles how many tiles get destroyed. GSBW hits every enemy, it looks like recent characters dont have that fun big difference.Lazy cap and lazy thor just do bigger numbers with the same abilities on red to cap and green for thor. Newer players will have basically no power till 4 of any ability.

Again, I think you're giving this game a little too much credit already. Look at the progression of cover improvements on powers and almost every one of them follows the same pattern, they do more damage, produce more tiles, or generally add a bigger number to what they're already doing. Nothing I've suggested is going to change 90% of what's already in game or adversely effect newer players. It's the little things that make the choices interesting.

Let's take Cap, since you brought him up. His red and blue are both excellent examples of a "big added feature" for a fifth cover, because being able to use them to overwrite any kind of special tile (specifically countdowns) is a huge improvement in functionality. The fact that his yellow is overpriced and doesn't do anything big at more than 3 covers makes it a moot point. But if his yellow was worth improving you'd have a real hard choice, because giving up that 5th cover in either of the other two makes them considerably less useful. That's the kind of back-loading I was referring to.

Deviator1

Lol it still makes no sense since they seemingly switched gears halfway through. Lazy Cap should have had a design change to his yellow since I'm sure the devs knew it's awful, instead they just made it place 4 tiles instead... whoopee... Unless they specifically wanted him to be built that way.

I want to be able to give credit to the game I spend too much time on lol but it has been a little harder lately. It's even funny to look at the older characters match damage since none of those make sense either. Cmags using yellow and not pink, GSBW using OBWs colors instead of her own, etc.