Eliminate skip tax for shielded players

reckless442

The MMR is so ridiculously out-of-whack that trying to find opponents worth points is becoming harder and harder. I just spent 700 ISO trying to find a match against an opponent that I knew was unshielded and was close to me in points, so would have been worth 24-25 points. Instead,I got the same two opponents worth 13 and 14 points amid dozens of 3- to 5-point matches. That system just doesn't make sense. When you have enough points to shield, you have to pick your matches carefully so that you can get points in the 2 to 3 battles between shields, particularly because any loss is usually worth 30+ points. Having to burn thousands of ISO to find matches is extremely frustrating and feels like a huge money grab by the developers ever since they expanded the MMR range.

The solution to this would be to eliminate the skip tax when a player is shielded. The shields cost HP, so the player is paying for the privilege of being shielded so there is a fairness element in not making the player also burn ISO. In addition, a shielded player can only queue three opponents at a time so there is a limit to the benefit he or she gets from avoiding the skip tax. Plus it is a fix for the bug that occurs when you pass 1400 and start getting matched with opponents with scores from 0 to 200, opponents who should be far outside the ordinary MMR range.

Unknown

Another fix I would like to see is when you skip a player, it truly removes that person from your queue, at least until you complete a match. I know I'm not the only person who has to spend thousands of ISO skipping the same people over and over again in almost every PvP. Sometimes you have to skip the same exact player 3 times in a row. Like the skip button is broken or something. And then there's the double whammy of you often showing up in the same queue as the players you skip, so you'll keep getting attacked by the same person for > -25 points while you frustratingly skip through < +25 point matches.

If the game has put you in an MMR bubble, this is how you break out of it, by removing players until there are none left. You'll still have to spend a lot of ISO skipping - but you won't have to skip Player A - Player B - Player B - Player A - Player C - Player B - Player B - Player A. Going through stuff like this is one of the most frustrating things about PvP.

Unknown

A+ idea. Would really make things better in the 1k+ world.

FaerieMyst

With the number of people playing this game it is ridiculous to pay to skip the same people repeatedly.

Unknown

Why the hell do you even have the option of seeing opponents in the 1-15 range anyway. Literally no option other than skip or stop playing altogether (I usually choose the latter)

Spoit

CornerPocket wrote:

Why the hell do you even have the option of seeing opponents in the 1-15 range anyway. Literally no option other than skip or stop playing altogether (I usually choose the latter)

It's so they can hit you for 40+ points, of course

killerkoala

or there should be no skip tax if you already skipped players once already, then skip tax resets after you complete a match.

Unknown

I recommend the same thing when skip tax was first implemented.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4249

They didn't listen then, they probably won't listen now.

Colognoisseur

reckless442 wrote:

The MMR is so ridiculously out-of-whack that trying to find opponents worth points is becoming harder and harder. I just spent 700 ISO trying to find a match against an opponent that I knew was unshielded and was close to me in points, so would have been worth 24-25 points. Instead,I got the same two opponents worth 13 and 14 points amid dozens of 3- to 5-point matches. That system just doesn't make sense. When you have enough points to shield, you have to pick your matches carefully so that you can get points in the 2 to 3 battles between shields, particularly because any loss is usually worth 30+ points. Having to burn thousands of ISO to find matches is extremely frustrating and feels like a huge money grab by the developers ever since they expanded the MMR range.

The solution to this would be to eliminate the skip tax when a player is shielded. The shields cost HP, so the player is paying for the privilege of being shielded so there is a fairness element in not making the player also burn ISO. In addition, a shielded player can only queue three opponents at a time so there is a limit to the benefit he or she gets from avoiding the skip tax. Plus it is a fix for the bug that occurs when you pass 1400 and start getting matched with opponents with scores from 0 to 200, opponents who should be far outside the ordinary MMR range.

You realize this probably only has an effect on <0.5% of the entire player base? You want the devs to fix a problem that only exists when a player gets above 1400 in PvP? A score which has no tangible benefit other than being able to say you can score that. Plus by achieving that score you are earning thousands of ISO which you are choosing to spend so you can have an unusually high score. Yes the devs are lining their pockets with the money spent by overly competitive players scoring greater than 1300 point in PvP because they can.
There are many things within this game which I would categorize as a money grab, this is so not one of them.

Unknown

gobstopper wrote:

Another fix I would like to see is when you skip a player, it truly removes that person from your queue, at least until you complete a match. I know I'm not the only person who has to spend thousands of ISO skipping the same people over and over again in almost every PvP. Sometimes you have to skip the same exact player 3 times in a row. Like the skip button is broken or something. And then there's the double whammy of you often showing up in the same queue as the players you skip, so you'll keep getting attacked by the same person for > -25 points while you frustratingly skip through < +25 point matches.

If the game has put you in an MMR bubble, this is how you break out of it, by removing players until there are none left. You'll still have to spend a lot of ISO skipping - but you won't have to skip Player A - Player B - Player B - Player A - Player C - Player B - Player B - Player A. Going through stuff like this is one of the most frustrating things about PvP.

Both ideas are great, but this one definitely needs to happen. Paying ISO to skip and seeing the same person immediately is frustrating, what did I just pay for?

Unknown

Colognoisseur wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

The MMR is so ridiculously out-of-whack that trying to find opponents worth points is becoming harder and harder. I just spent 700 ISO trying to find a match against an opponent that I knew was unshielded and was close to me in points, so would have been worth 24-25 points. Instead,I got the same two opponents worth 13 and 14 points amid dozens of 3- to 5-point matches. That system just doesn't make sense. When you have enough points to shield, you have to pick your matches carefully so that you can get points in the 2 to 3 battles between shields, particularly because any loss is usually worth 30+ points. Having to burn thousands of ISO to find matches is extremely frustrating and feels like a huge money grab by the developers ever since they expanded the MMR range.

The solution to this would be to eliminate the skip tax when a player is shielded. The shields cost HP, so the player is paying for the privilege of being shielded so there is a fairness element in not making the player also burn ISO. In addition, a shielded player can only queue three opponents at a time so there is a limit to the benefit he or she gets from avoiding the skip tax. Plus it is a fix for the bug that occurs when you pass 1400 and start getting matched with opponents with scores from 0 to 200, opponents who should be far outside the ordinary MMR range.

You realize this probably only has an effect on <0.5% of the entire player base? You want the devs to fix a problem that only exists when a player gets above 1400 in PvP? A score which has no tangible benefit other than being able to say you can score that. Plus by achieving that score you are earning thousands of ISO which you are choosing to spend so you can have an unusually high score. Yes the devs are lining their pockets with the money spent by overly competitive players scoring greater than 1300 point in PvP because they can.
There are many things within this game which I would categorize as a money grab, this is so not one of them.

I have to disagree with your evaluation on this 1.

1. Pro's above 1k points.
2. Also, intermediate players shiel
ded in the 500 - 1k range. It will help them search for some1 not full of 166 while shielded
3. Really any1 who shields at all at least gets some benefit.

I think it would effect a larger portion of player base than you would suspect.

Unknown

As long as you're happy to spend ungodly amount of ISO on skips and can't just leave the play without an extra hop, what exactly motivates DU to make this change?

From the start we ashed a fair change to match offers BEFORE skip tax is dumped on the game. And implement some filters to offers.

And also asked that at least until the offers start to look like sensible at least make skipping the low-point games for free, say below 10 pts (preferably under 15). Nothing like that happened.

And not even a verbal hint that the current thing works anything but exactly as intended.

Unknown

I see plenty of people shielding well below the 1400 point mark. Their nodes are not returning matches worth a mere 1-3 points, but that does not mean that their nodes are showing opponents of worthwhile value. Anyway, no skip tax for shielded players benefits everyone.

1. The game sucks at updating actual scores. A mid game player shielding at 500 may see opponents worth 30 points upon shielding. 3-24 hours later, the true value of those opponents is completely in flux. They should not have to pay ISO to flush out their queue. Without skipping a bunch, those shielded players are also unlikely to find players who have gained hundreds of points - making them much more valuable targets - free of charge. They're going to pay ISO that they could be using to further level their characters. The devs have been pretty bullish on leveling.

2. The point of paying real actual money is to strengthen your roster quickly to compete at a higher level while expending less real time. Some people have more money than time and that is absolutely fine. That spent money allows people to compete at the 1400+ level. To see that the devs don't care about the people who have spent real money on their game is not just disheartening - it is disincentivizing. The whales and Krakens who consistently spend money are quitting. We've seen it happen. We are seeing it right now.

3. Lists come in threes.

rbdragon

Until the skip button actually skips an opponent completely, it is completely unfair to charge us anything to use it.

The 1000's of players playing this game, and you're telling me there are only 5 players I can choose from at any given time? Ridiculous.

And for the record, when you skip player A and the next player is player A again, you didn't skip anyone. That's false advertising.

The only fair thing about it is that it happens to everyone - not something the devs should hang their hat on.

reckless442

Colognoisseur wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

The MMR is so ridiculously out-of-whack that trying to find opponents worth points is becoming harder and harder. I just spent 700 ISO trying to find a match against an opponent that I knew was unshielded and was close to me in points, so would have been worth 24-25 points. Instead,I got the same two opponents worth 13 and 14 points amid dozens of 3- to 5-point matches. That system just doesn't make sense. When you have enough points to shield, you have to pick your matches carefully so that you can get points in the 2 to 3 battles between shields, particularly because any loss is usually worth 30+ points. Having to burn thousands of ISO to find matches is extremely frustrating and feels like a huge money grab by the developers ever since they expanded the MMR range.

The solution to this would be to eliminate the skip tax when a player is shielded. The shields cost HP, so the player is paying for the privilege of being shielded so there is a fairness element in not making the player also burn ISO. In addition, a shielded player can only queue three opponents at a time so there is a limit to the benefit he or she gets from avoiding the skip tax. Plus it is a fix for the bug that occurs when you pass 1400 and start getting matched with opponents with scores from 0 to 200, opponents who should be far outside the ordinary MMR range.

You realize this probably only has an effect on <0.5% of the entire player base? You want the devs to fix a problem that only exists when a player gets above 1400 in PvP? A score which has no tangible benefit other than being able to say you can score that. Plus by achieving that score you are earning thousands of ISO which you are choosing to spend so you can have an unusually high score. Yes the devs are lining their pockets with the money spent by overly competitive players scoring greater than 1300 point in PvP because they can.
There are many things within this game which I would categorize as a money grab, this is so not one of them.

Oddly enough, I did consider that only players who use shields would benefit. But I considered a few more things.

First, not every change has to benefit the "entire player base," if you are defining that as everyone who has downloaded MPQ. Let's instead consider the impact of the change on players who compete in PVPs. Assume that 500,000 people join each PVP. Ignoring the fact that many of those players don't really compete much and may just do a few matches, but if you consider that there are 500 players per bracket, that results in 1,000 brackets. It is rare these days to have brackets where most, if not all of the top 10 use shields. So let's say that 8 of the 10 use shields. That is 8,000 players who would benefit from not being charged for skipping. That is not an insignificant figure.

Second, that figure is even less significant when you consider who those players are. It is hardly unreasonable to assume that players who use shields spend more on average than players who don't. They also probably include many of the most vocal players on these forums and the MPQ Facebook page. The players at the top of leaderboards also are the players that other players want to emulate. The Devs can only benefit by removing one source of frustration that is contributing to the dissatisfaction of those players.

Third, this change makes sense in light of the changes the Devs have made since the imposed the skip tax. Many recent changes -- nerfing Spidey, true healing, expanding the MMR to expose players to a wider range of attacks -- have increased the pressure on players at higher levels to shield. In many instances, that begins at around 900 to 1000 points. The increased shielding means that you will have fewer players above you to attack unless you find them when they are unshielded. Meanwhile, the expanded MMR also now means that you have a lot more players in your MMR bubble to cycle through. So at 900, you might have 10 players in your bubble worth 25 or, but you probably have hundreds or thousands worth 3 to 10, because your MMR is matching you with players in the 400s.

Fourth, the change may save players some ISO, but may increase HP spending by adding another benefit to buying shields. The Devs have said they don't want players buying ISO and want players to have a broader roster. So providing a fix that helps paying players save ISO is consistent with that goal. How is that not a win-win for the players and the Devs?

So, while this change may affect only a small percentage of the player base, it still makes total sense for the Devs to throw us a bone by making the change.

over_clocked

Colognoisseur wrote:

You realize this probably only has an effect on <0.5% of the entire player base? You want the devs to fix a problem that only exists when a player gets above 1400 in PvP? A score which has no tangible benefit other than being able to say you can score that. Plus by achieving that score you are earning thousands of ISO which you are choosing to spend so you can have an unusually high score. Yes the devs are lining their pockets with the money spent by overly competitive players scoring greater than 1300 point in PvP because they can.
There are many things within this game which I would categorize as a money grab, this is so not one of them.

I doubt I fit into the 0,5 percentile, but I run into MMR hell regularly when hitting measly 900-1000 points. Had this happen just now in Krakadoom and had to skip my own alliance mate over 10 times, and I need a score higher than 900 to simply keep top 5, or top 10 if things go south.

Eddiemon

I don't think you have throught this idea through.

If they implemented this or something similar then as soon as you broke shield you would become a target for anyone shielded in your points region who was active. As soon as you unshield for your 3 fights you can expect to get hit many times over because whatever method you use to make sure that you get viable targets quickly means that everyone who has you as a viable traget will be able to traget and attack you quickly.

So you either get shield hopping, where you target the guy and wait for him to shield again before getting your points, or you get burned down 100 points within 5 minutes because you poked your head outside of a shield and everyone got to target you.

The fact that it currently isn't simple to target people with high point scores is a good thing. It gives you a chance to get those 13 or 14 point wins and vanish inside your shield again before being beaten like a pinata.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

I don't think you have throught this idea through.

If they implemented this or something similar then as soon as you broke shield you would become a target for anyone shielded in your points region who was active. As soon as you unshield for your 3 fights you can expect to get hit many times over because whatever method you use to make sure that you get viable targets quickly means that everyone who has you as a viable traget will be able to traget and attack you quickly.

So you either get shield hopping, where you target the guy and wait for him to shield again before getting your points, or you get burned down 100 points within 5 minutes because you poked your head outside of a shield and everyone got to target you.

The fact that it currently isn't simple to target people with high point scores is a good thing. It gives you a chance to get those 13 or 14 point wins and vanish inside your shield again before being beaten like a pinata.

So it would be just the same as it is now except it would cost us less iso?

Eddiemon

Psykopathic wrote:

So it would be just the same as it is now except it would cost us less iso?

No.

reckless442

Eddiemon wrote:

I don't think you have throught this idea through.

If they implemented this or something similar then as soon as you broke shield you would become a target for anyone shielded in your points region who was active. As soon as you unshield for your 3 fights you can expect to get hit many times over because whatever method you use to make sure that you get viable targets quickly means that everyone who has you as a viable traget will be able to traget and attack you quickly.

So you either get shield hopping, where you target the guy and wait for him to shield again before getting your points, or you get burned down 100 points within 5 minutes because you poked your head outside of a shield and everyone got to target you.

The fact that it currently isn't simple to target people with high point scores is a good thing. It gives you a chance to get those 13 or 14 point wins and vanish inside your shield again before being beaten like a pinata.

I don't think that is the case. It would still take the same amount of time to find a high-point target; you just wouldn't be charged for searching. Moreover, I think most players who are shielded try to queue more than one node before they unshield to attack. Players sniping one another is pretty rare, and it is particularly hard to do it before the targeted player gets back under shield. The player does not become visible until he or she unshields and with server lag, that should be nearly enough time to complete one match. To actually hurt that player, the person targeting him or her, would have to find them, set up the attack, unshield and complete the match before the first player puts up a new shield. Can it be done? Sure. But it's not that easy. And I don't see how it is much different than it is now since that player is potentially visible when they unshield to everyone in the MMR bubble who is unshielded. So if someone is high enough to be a target for other high-point players to immediately break shield, he or she would be an even bigger target to the players who would hit him or her for 35+. No matter what, that player had better keep the time they are unshielded to a minimum. Decreasing the cost of skipping is not going to significantly change that.

As for shields giving you a chance to get those 13 or 14 point matches, right now, once you pass a certain threshold, those matches don't exist because players who would be worth those points are shielded. For instance, if you are at 1200, those 13- or 14-point matches are in the 1000s, so you have to catch them in your queue by skipping through a lot of 3- to 5-point garbage.

Unknown

Colognoisseur wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

The MMR is so ridiculously out-of-whack that trying to find opponents worth points is becoming harder and harder. I just spent 700 ISO trying to find a match against an opponent that I knew was unshielded and was close to me in points, so would have been worth 24-25 points. Instead,I got the same two opponents worth 13 and 14 points amid dozens of 3- to 5-point matches. That system just doesn't make sense. When you have enough points to shield, you have to pick your matches carefully so that you can get points in the 2 to 3 battles between shields, particularly because any loss is usually worth 30+ points. Having to burn thousands of ISO to find matches is extremely frustrating and feels like a huge money grab by the developers ever since they expanded the MMR range.

The solution to this would be to eliminate the skip tax when a player is shielded. The shields cost HP, so the player is paying for the privilege of being shielded so there is a fairness element in not making the player also burn ISO. In addition, a shielded player can only queue three opponents at a time so there is a limit to the benefit he or she gets from avoiding the skip tax. Plus it is a fix for the bug that occurs when you pass 1400 and start getting matched with opponents with scores from 0 to 200, opponents who should be far outside the ordinary MMR range.

You realize this probably only has an effect on <0.5% of the entire player base? You want the devs to fix a problem that only exists when a player gets above 1400 in PvP? A score which has no tangible benefit other than being able to say you can score that. Plus by achieving that score you are earning thousands of ISO which you are choosing to spend so you can have an unusually high score. Yes the devs are lining their pockets with the money spent by overly competitive players scoring greater than 1300 point in PvP because they can.
There are many things within this game which I would categorize as a money grab, this is so not one of them.

In a nutshell, you point out that the problem only affects a small minority of players, and you doubt it's a money grab. It sounds like you believe the problem to be players attempting to achieve unusually high scores. I am wondering if you feel the developers should leave the current system in place.

The issue I have is that it's easy and permissible to exploit certain game mechanics (Tanking, Shield Hopping). The developers "necessary evil" stance makes it difficult to compete unless I also take advantage of the exploits. I think it's unreasonable to suggest that players at the top need to deal with it. If exploiting game mechanics is necessary to rise to the top ranks, then it becomes relevant to every player. The message is that the way to win isn't by playing the match-3 game. The way to win is by exploiting game mechanics and playing as little as possible. In order to more easily secure a win (and earn more ISO) one must lose in order to win (tanking). It's a liability to spend too much time matching tiles. Coordinate shielding with allies to facilitate quick victories and obtain unusually high scores (shield hopping).