MPQ Halloween 2021 Activities
Comments
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Happily!HoundofShadow said:I'm curious, how does the late 2017 to 2021 meta look like for you if it's not what I and some other experienced? Also, more importantly, what mmr level are you using?
As for datamined info, those info aren't made public because it's not official for release. Players who consume such info run a risk of getting upset or angry. It also proves that the developer do re-balances from time to time before character releases. Unfortunately, players who read such info frame such changes that they don't like as "nerf".
Anyway, those who have champed GR, please do a review over the weekend to share with players how the new GR compares to the old GR.
When you talk about the metagame in MPQ, especially in the past, you're talking about one team. Competitive players find the best team, get that team, then run that 100% of the time. The cycle has repeated throughout the years. Until 5* boosts, I saw the same team in every single event.
Late 2017 - Gambit and Thor are released in the same Latest cycle, the best team is Gambit/Thor.
May 2018 - Okoye released. Gambit is nerfed shortly thereafter. The best team becomes Okoye/Thor.
2019 - The best team is still Okoye/Thor.
2020 - Hulk is released. The best team is now Okoye/Hulk.
2021 - Scarlet Witch and Colossus are released. The best team is Scarlet Witch/Colossus.
So where were the counters for these characters, by your previous deductions? Why did we never get a counter for Okoye? For Thor? Why did Hulk get crushed by Scarlet Witch?0 -
Our list didn't differ a lot. The only team missing is Kitty, Bishop/Capworthy, Prof X and BRB. And that difference largely happened in 2019.
The counters for Gambit were, by the dev own admission, Archangel and Cap IW.
Thorokoye didn't need a counter, the only counter they need is how to make pvp less boring. So, the counter was a shakeup of meta. Obviously, 550 and 450 mmr is different, so those missing lists above shook up 450 but not 550.
We did have a direct counter for Thor: Hela. IHulk also countered Thor. As mentioned, Thorokoye didn't need a counter because they are glass cannon. Thorokoye functioned quickly because of 50% health Thor and Okoye complementing with each other. Over the AI side, it's 100% health Thor. You counter him by spamming powers or 1 shot him before he hits 50% health. Okoye by herself has an inbuilt counter, which is by moving her to the back. Onslaught is a counter.
As I mentioned and I should amend my statement, meta are shaken up either by having counters to them or by creating another meta. And to reiterate and add on, no meta has complete domination at 450 mmr level that went beyond 1 year, with the exception of Bishop. At your level, Thorokoye dominated for about 2 years.
Wanda killed iHulkoye because he was building at least 4 charges per turn on Wanda's repeaters, which reduced all subsequent damage by 80%. With Gamora out, we'll probably see her with iHulkoye in Shield sim wiping Apocalypse/Colossus/Wanda.
I think you have an extreme view of what a counter is, and if I didn't remember wrongly, it simply means obliteration of the meta, both on offense and defense.
For 450 mmr, we don't need obliteration of meta. That's why 450 mmr seems to be more fun than 550 mmr because we have more variety.
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In your previous post, you cited a very specific cycle of a certain period of months, in which the metagame changes, the devs create counters to that metagame, and eventually a new one is released. You said that anyone could easily work out this cycle based on deduction.
I pointed out that there has been no such cycle. The metagame changes much less frequently and much more sporadically than what your post listed, and counters are sometimes introduced, but often have no impact at all. Hela, for example, perhaps countered Thor on paper, but was never widely used.
I didn't have 550s in 2018. However, I was a competitive 5* player then. By your own admission, you started playing this game in 2017.
Many teams may be viable at the 450 level now. Many teams were viable at the 450 level over the years, as well. At any specific point, only one of those teams was the best, and the best team was used 100% of the time by players who were competing.
So why are the devs now producing counters like Scarlet Witch and Gamora instead of counters like Hela and Archangel? Something has changed, and no, I'm not able to deduce what has changed by looking at the history.0 -
That's a fantastic question that I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about over the years. They've tried so many things (like Onslaught, for example) and it's had zero effect on her.dianetics said:I don’t mean how do you defeat her. What would be a character implementation would put your opponent at risk like 5witch did to ihulk.
if okoye is the central star of 2 top tier meta teams that dominate all of 550 play as entrail suggests then she would be the character that needs a counter to reduce her effectiveness.
** edit Onslaught doesn’t do it. He’s been out too long and the proc is too conditionary
My suggestion was a character that passively set the enemy team's TU AP to zero every turn, but that effect is very narrow and would basically only do anything against Okoye.
You could create a character that passively damaged the enemy team every time they matched TU, but that's very wide and probably too good.0 -
To be fair the only hard counter released is SW.
Gamora needs to collect 7 yellow and to protect her repeater: on defense that it's nothing. And still that won't protect her from the thorn- whipp repply from SW, except it she gets stunned.
Ihulk getting crushed is an indirect way for okoye being crushed too on pvp as there is no better defensive and ofensive partner for her.0 -
Right, so...WHY? Why release one super hard crushing counter to one meta character, and then stop? This reflects something they've never, ever done before. Is it something they're trying to do more often? Is it an alternative to making changes to Hulk?Bad said:To be fair the only hard counter released is SW.
Gamora needs to collect 7 yellow and to protect her repeater: on defense that it's nothing. And still that won't protect her from the thorn- whipp repply from SW, except it she gets stunned.
Ihulk getting crushed is an indirect way for okoye being crushed too on pvp as there is no better defensive and ofensive partner for her.
Why can't we just know this stuff?
Maybe some people aren't interested in the whys, and that's ok. What harm is there in briefly telling the rest of us what their strategy is? Can we expect more of these counters? How might they choose who gets countered? Are they satisfied with how the new strategy is working?0 -
Kinda bummed the Halloween Horrors vault doesn't have any 5* shards. I don't think I'll be spending any of my HP hoard on it. I was hoping for some shards for the revamped Ghost Rider...1
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I think it's obvious. They were a duo pretty broken offensively and defensively and if not stopping them in time all pvp would be ihulkoye teams.entrailbucket said:.Right, so...WHY? Why release one super hard crushing counter to one meta character, and then stop? This reflects something they've never, ever done before. Is it something they're trying to do more often? Is it an alternative to making changes to Hulk?
Why can't we just know this stuff?
Maybe some people aren't interested in the whys, and that's ok. What harm is there in briefly telling the rest of us what their strategy is? Can we expect more of these counters? How might they choose who gets countered? Are they satisfied with how the new strategy is working?
They were 80% of pvp teams and an auto pilot team. Also the gacha rule mentioned is fulfilled: one day a good character will not be good anymore.
I don't have okoye but I think still it's possible to win battles. Obviously it's gonna be hits. Perhaps what some players don't like is to get a lot of hits.0 -
The cycle is not meant to be followed strictly. The point of that cycle is tell you that you can roughly expect to see the meta change every 6 months or so, due to rock/scissor/paper. The reason why you can't put a specific month on the cycle is because as the dev mentioned, their schedules change somewhat frequently. If Marvel decided to ask the dev work on a last minute or urgent project, they might have to stop what they are doing and fulfill Marvel's request first.
Moving on, meta change is defined as counter to an existing (dominating) meta or a shakeup of the meta. A shakeup of meta doesn't have to be a nerf or a counter. It can simply be new mechanics. For example, Colossus is a meta, but he doesn't counter any existing meta. However, he shook the meta by introducing defensive meta, where he reduces enemy match damage by 83%, and also kicked off match damage meta. Together with Wanda, they created a passive offensive-defensive meta which covered both power and match damage.
We are not going to argue about the efficiency of the counters created in the last 4 years towards various metas and as you mentioned, counters were created. What's important is that it signifies the intention of the dev, that is to shake up the meta. If the counter doesn't work, they create another one. It proves my point that they will create counter for (problematic) meta approximately 6 months later.
The first 5* was created in September 2015 and 5* was meant to be the end game. In the first couple of years they don't have enough data for 5* gameplay. From Sep 2015 onwards, they were accumulating data and feedback about 5* gameplay. Back then, there weren't a lot of 5* for them to have meaningful comparison. It's 2021 now and over the years, they have learned the mistakes they made and refined and tweaked the way nerfs and counters are handled, based on feedbacks, metrics and datas collected.
In 2019, I think one of the core game designers left MPQ and worked on other Marvel game. So, they were probably adjusting to new changes in their design team.
In 2020, we had Covid-19, which affected a lot of Marvel Projects.
To end, it's impossible for anyone to have perfect execution of any project they do. People become better when they learn from their own mistakes and experiences of others. As to why counters in 2019 aren't as good as those in 2021 or 2020, the short answer is experiences gained over the years refined their skills and maybe a "shakeup" of the dev team contributed to new way of approaching the game metaplay.0 -
I honestly don't know. Basically every competitive game provides this kind of information, in varying amounts, on a regular basis. Those games don't seem to lose money over it, and in fact the successful games all do it.dianetics said:To be cynical money. The cover race and roster slots that fuel earnings is the reason.
From a business perspective why would I pay time and money to a pr person to explain development.
from a practical perspective it’s just lazy.
There is probably no specific reason but many different factors when the actual audience is a tiny minority of the player base
I'm talking about keeping players somewhat informed about the general direction and design of the game.
How long would it take to tell us they currently have no plans to negatively change characters in the future, and they're looking into hard counters (or soft counters) for a short list of specified characters? It's a brief paragraph tacked onto a new character announcement.
When is a character too weak, or too powerful? Why did they choose to rework Ghost Rider? Can we expect more 5* reworks?
Why do we have to speculate and debate about this when they could quickly, easily, definitively answer these kinds of questions?
Giving us highly detailed, 1000-page insider discussions that are formatted and written up by PR people...that's never going to happen, but also *nobody else does that and that's not at all what I'm asking for*.0 -
Right. So maybe the reason is that they think it'd be too hard, or they think nobody would care, and maybe they're right. It would be cool and useful if they did it, but maybe they just can't.
The reason I've become a raving crazy person posting 1000-word rants about this is that I honestly cannot believe there are a large number of engaged players on this forum who *don't* want to know these answers, who prefer to be kept in the dark, or who think the devs answering these questions would somehow be detrimental.
I just can't wrap my mind around that attitude at all.0 -
"large number" - where are you getting that from?entrailbucket said:
The reason I've become a raving crazy person posting 1000-word rants about this is that I honestly cannot believe there are a large number of engaged players on this forum who *don't* want to know
I just can't wrap my mind around that attitude at all.4 -
So to put it clear: Do you want an explanation on why a character was releaded 8 months ago and for what reason your broken baby champed Ihulk got harmed?
And if they will continue this behaviour?
Honestly I'm not interested in an official explanation like that as I can figure out all the answers.
So about that theme I guess I will be "in the dark".
On rebalancing characters theme I could be more interested, though.0 -
I think, at this point, it would be better to stop.Sekilicious said:It is made up. He is referencing his accusations to two other players earlier in the thread, where they more or less expressed dianetics opinion in the post above, but he interpreted it to mean they preferred being kept in the dark. And now it appears he is conflating that fallacious opinion to everyone who does not go on 1000 word rants about the lack of communication as preferring a state of ignorance. In spite of the fact no one has expressed that opinion.
Sincere (and I do mean this) apologies for wasting anyone's time or offending anyone, that was not my intention.1 -
Probably is best to let it lie at this point. For my part, I'd like to know, but I realistically don't think it would be good for paying players to know nerfs were coming based off the history of how nerfs go in this game. If we had more trust "rebalances" to bring a character down from god tier weren't going to result in trash tier results, maybe that wouldn't be the case.0
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I apologize, I was probably too harsh in my assessment. It is difficult for me to tell sometimes. I will remove my comment.entrailbucket said:I think, at this point, it would be better to stop.
Sincere (and I do mean this) apologies for wasting anyone's time or offending anyone, that was not my intention.1 -
I think actually there was no offense. Each one stating his viewpoint, that's all.
A pov that can be totally different depending on each MMR.0 -
My comment was also not meant as any sort of confrontational nonsense, Mr. Bucket. A bit of exaggeration is a crime we all commit from time to time - if I had 560,000 times I was guilty of that I would have a champed 5* Wasp!entrailbucket said:I think, at this point, it would be better to stop.
Sincere (and I do mean this) apologies for wasting anyone's time or offending anyone, that was not my intention.0 -
I think I just did a bad job of getting my point across, or people read something into what I was saying that was unintended, and it spiraled from there.DAZ0273 said:My comment was also not meant as any sort of confrontational nonsense, Mr. Bucket. A bit of exaggeration is a crime we all commit from time to time - if I had 560,000 times I was guilty of that I would have a champed 5* Wasp!
No offense taken, from anyone.
And yes, everyone calls me bucket or eb.0
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