What are the positive points of this terrible meta

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Projectus2501
Projectus2501 Posts: 218 Tile Toppler
edited March 2020 in MPQ General Discussion
Since the introduction of cl10 (a much needed improvement) and the new kitty BRB meta the game pace has really slowed down. 
A game now takes twice as much time than a thorkoye game took. 
Unfortunately thorkoye VS kitty BRB is bad. Even worse... Kitty BRB vs kitty BRB is a never ending lottery.
Can anyone (devs included) explain me what are the positives of this situation?...

Ps: not even gonna talk about bishop... 

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  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,295 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The positive?  It's a different character?  Spamming protects that generate AP was a different direction.  BRB's blue is effectively a 3 AP power since it's very likely those protects will get matched away.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/81972/brbitty-is-the-real-play-while-watching-netflix-team#latest

    I of course agree - they have not effectively managed the evolution of the meta.  I have doubts they will do anything about it, either.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    These are the list of meta that some don't want to see, based on the sentiments in this forum:

    1) Bishop: free ap and stun
    2) Capworth/Hawkeye: free ap and slow matches
    3) Kitty/BRB: defensive
    4) Gambit: free ap gain and destroying opponent ap
    5) Gritty: high damage 

    If we were to extract these, it would be defensive AI team shouldn't be doing this:

    1) get free ap every turn
    2) play defensively via protect tiles
    3) deals high damage 
    4) slow down matches in any form (for example, attack tiles or putting out new special tiles like Carbage/BRB)
    5) cause players to use more healthpacks

    Let's turn this around.

    1) What kind of meta would you like to see in the game?
    2) How do you want your ideal meta be countered?
    3) What's the max number of turns a player should take to win a match against meta team?
  • Projectus2501
    Projectus2501 Posts: 218 Tile Toppler
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    HoundofShadow said:
    These are the list of meta that some don't want to see, based on the sentiments in this forum:

    1) Bishop: free ap and stun
    2) Capworth/Hawkeye: free ap and slow matches
    3) Kitty/BRB: defensive
    4) Gambit: free ap gain and destroying opponent ap
    5) Gritty: high damage 

    If we were to extract these, it would be defensive AI team shouldn't be doing this:

    1) get free ap every turn
    2) play defensively via protect tiles
    3) deals high damage 
    4) slow down matches in any form (for example, attack tiles or putting out new special tiles like Carbage/BRB)
    5) cause players to use more healthpacks

    Let's turn this around.

    1) What kind of meta would you like to see in the game?
    2) How do you want your ideal meta be countered?
    3) What's the max number of turns a player should take to win a match against meta team?
    1 meta should be Fast. The perfect scenario would have several fast metas at the same time

    2 meta beats everything else that's why it's meta... But meta vs meta should be an easy win. Like thorkoye VS thorkoye

    3 meta beats everything... I don't like it... The harder to beat the more unbanced the meta is...   So I guess the awnser is: a small number of turns
  • abmoraz
    abmoraz Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    Projectus2501 said:
    Since the introduction of cl10 (a much needed improvement) and the new kitty BRB meta the game pace has really slowed down. 
    A game now takes twice as much time than a thorkoye game took. 
    Unfortunately thorkoye VS kitty BRB is bad. Even worse... Kitty BRB vs kitty BRB is a never ending lottery.
    Can anyone (devs included) explain me what are the positives of this situation?...

    Ps: not even gonna talk about bishop... 
    really?  that's what I use and it's really effective.  There's just 2 or 3 things to make it work:
    1. CONCENTRATE ALL FIRE ON BRB.  Don't worry about 1-hit team damage.  KILL BRB first.
    2. You NEED to get 1 (or more) of the initial protect tiles matched away in first 2 moves.  This is pretty essential.  It stops Kitty's boost and lets you do match damage to whiddle down BRB.
    3. Okoye should be tanking blue, so do blue denial whenever possible.  You do NOT want BRB firing his blue. 

    It's not rocket-surgery.  Take out BRB and Kitty is basically harmless.
  • Vins2
    Vins2 Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
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    So what's the counter to the ubiquitous BRB/Kitty/Bishop team that everyone's using in shield sim?  
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vins2 said:
    So what's the counter to the ubiquitous BRB/Kitty/Bishop team that everyone's using in shield sim?  
     Many of the standard stunlock teams will work well enough. BRB + bishop actually makes things a bit easier for the offensive team since it's easier to avoid proc'ing bishop.

    He/worthy/okoye does pretty well.  (Feel free to swap in gamora or coulson or DD for that 3rd.


  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2020
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    HoundofShadow said:
    These are the list of meta that some don't want to see, based on the sentiments in this forum:

    1) Bishop: free ap and stun
    2) Capworth/Hawkeye: free ap and slow matches
    3) Kitty/BRB: defensive
    4) Gambit: free ap gain and destroying opponent ap
    5) Gritty: high damage 

    If we were to extract these, it would be defensive AI team shouldn't be doing this:

    1) get free ap every turn
    2) play defensively via protect tiles
    3) deals high damage 
    4) slow down matches in any form (for example, attack tiles or putting out new special tiles like Carbage/BRB)
    5) cause players to use more healthpacks

    Let's turn this around.

    1) What kind of meta would you like to see in the game?
    2) How do you want your ideal meta be countered?
    3) What's the max number of turns a player should take to win a match against meta team?
    This is an especially egregious straw man.

    (1) people can complain about the problems with a particular team synergy without invalidating the underlying mechanics.

    (2) the fact that someone had concerns about all of those meta's does not mean than everyone shares all of those concerns.

    (3) you are misstating several of the particular critiques.  People dislike gritty because of the speed and passivity with which she adds damage.  BW can also do very high damage but no one cares. And people dislike brb/gritty because it means long matches, which are a problem for extrinsic reasons.

    **Mod note: removed inappropriate comments. - fight4thedream

  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,410 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Px seems to give me more losses than Kitty/BRB. So often RNG giving Px multiple match 4 cascades taking out Okyoke.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    It's more of an exploration of the likes and dislikes of the past and current meta, and I didn't meant to say that everyone feels the same because there are some who like the current meta. 

    For Kitty, I should say she improves her team SAP at the start by at least 3000. This makes her team nasty when paired with the right indviduals like R4G and BRB.

    Ultimately, there are a lot of factors that influence how players deal with meta. Generally speaking, the more constraints players placed on a counter team, the fewer the options available for them.
  • Projectus2501
    Projectus2501 Posts: 218 Tile Toppler
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    Vhailorx said

    (3) you are misstating several of the particular critiques.  People dislike gritty because of the speed and passivity with which she adds damage.  BW can also do very high damage but no one cares. And people dislike brb/gritty because it means long matches, which are a problem for extrinsic reasons.


    Exactly!!!

    Thank you for putting in such a simple manner what I was trying to say. 
    I don't care what characters are meta (although the bigger the number the better) I just think that this meta is much slower than the previous ones. And I don't see any advantage on this for anyone. Not for the paying player, not for the f2p player, not even for the devs. 
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,295 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2020
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    Last night I was playing the Hulk PVP and took my BRBitty vs another BRBitty and did it wrong.  (Spoiler:  Boost blue and green and chase green as much as possible.  Don't chase blue.)

    Should have retreated but decided to stick it out.....I think that was like a 15-20 minute match.   :D

    Whatever, I am emotionally disengaging more and more as it is.  Seems they are more interested in making bundles vs creating a fun and balanced meta.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Projectus2501 said:
    ...

    Ps: not even gonna talk about bishop... 

    Why not? It's not -just- BRB (which everyone is floating on, because it slows down every game 500%). It's the combination of BRB -with- Bishop. Like in days of yore where I saw plenty of players doing great with Kitty as their only 5* and matching it with 4*'s, now I see players with small BRB as their only 5* (or one of a very few) and floating high with a 4* partner way up high.

    MMR mess 'helps' these situations - these 5/4 teams simply disappear from anyone who can hit them.

    BRB blue probably should have been costed 9 -and- shouldn't be given blue when D tiles match. It's practically impossible to keep the AI out of firing that blue. Additionally, BRB (and kitty both) should probably have a repeater tile that fires that ability once every other or every third turn.

    The only hope I have is that the power-creep curve is real, and it won't end with BRB.

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
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    This is actually the best the meta has ever been. There are a number of teams that can do well, it's just not fast....


    And truthfully its best for the over all health of pvp is the over all meta isn't how quick can you down a team.


    So this switch to a more defensive meta over all is good imo.


    Don't worry though 5 iHulk is coming to set things back on track.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2020
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    bluewolf said:
    Last night I was playing the Hulk PVP and took my BRBitty vs another BRBitty and did it wrong.  (Spoiler:  Boost blue and green and chase green as much as possible.  Don't chase blue.)

    Should have retreated but decided to stick it out.....I think that was like a 15-20 minute match.   :D

    Whatever, I am emotionally disengaging more and more as it is.  Seems they are more interested in making bundles vs creating a fun and balanced meta.
    Nah, they have only ever been interested in the game being profitable.  I am sure the Devs would like a fun and balanced meta, all other things being equal, but that is a secondary concern. And all these resource and direct purchase bundle changes strongly suggest that old monetization model was offering diminished returns. 

    It seems likely that new player engagement is down, so they have tightened up on HP and starting offering better hp deals to push vets to more purchases. 
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,710 Chairperson of the Boards
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    See despite people hating on this meta I see lots of this forum using the hateful meta teams right out of the gate in SIM. Seriously even at low points, suppressing the scores and actually making it harder for themselves and slower to reach 2k or 75 wins. I sit with okoye thor and deadpool for fast wins and retals and usually it makes sim a walk in the park. Thanks to all those doing likewise.

    I wish it wasn’t against the forum rules I’d love to create a wall of shame of those in here doing it straight away in SIM.  :pensive:

    I’m finding it a struggle now to just get to 900 for the first time since I joined 5* land with gambit. It’s so slow I might just have to call it a day and join team troll and play every pvp match to 11 wins with a troll team.
  • Jexy
    Jexy Posts: 52 Match Maker
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    I just champed one of the new metas (BRB) and pushed to I dunno 600 or so with Thorkoye & then after that with BRB and Prof X / 5Carnage to 1000. wasn't difficult, lost once during my push, no biggie. but then yeah every match after 1000 was worth like 5 points & so I just shielded out. despite playing since the game launched, as a mostly non paying player I don't get if there's a trick to finding reasonable points after 1000 or so. but alliance mates push to like 1700 so apparently it's possible. if the trick involves line or whatever I'm not gonna do it, it's a match 3, but if there's something I can do as a player to make it more point rich for others that doesn't involve not shielding for a long time then I could do it. talking about pvp not sim
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,295 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Jexy said:
    I just champed one of the new metas (BRB) and pushed to I dunno 600 or so with Thorkoye & then after that with BRB and Prof X / 5Carnage to 1000. wasn't difficult, lost once during my push, no biggie. but then yeah every match after 1000 was worth like 5 points & so I just shielded out. despite playing since the game launched, as a mostly non paying player I don't get if there's a trick to finding reasonable points after 1000 or so. but alliance mates push to like 1700 so apparently it's possible. if the trick involves line or whatever I'm not gonna do it, it's a match 3, but if there's something I can do as a player to make it more point rich for others that doesn't involve not shielding for a long time then I could do it. talking about pvp not sim
    Playing in PVP, your scores will be very dependent on your slice.  However, many players are very likely happy with 1000 points now.

    Once you hit 1K, lots of people either shield out or just let their score drop (take hits), but either way there aren't going to be many targets sitting out above that point for you to hit.

    People climbing above that score are almost certainly using LINE to coordinate and do hops (I do), other than maybe some whales who can probably climb above there a little more easiy.

    Earlier (before Bishop) people climbed higher and could build higher scores because they weren't just sitting out with a team that no one wanted to fight; in other words, getting placement meant fighting for a score vs letting an OP (or at least very annoying) defensive team hold your place in the LB to a large degree.  So now lower scores get decent placement just because it's hard to get anywhere fast, so you can't do as many hits in a hop as you could before.

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