Beyond Band-aids -- How to REALLY fix RtO

ElfNeedsFood · February 2018

hawkyh1 said:

my idea is they could have turned it into a treasure hunt
event. 3rd objective could be a tally of the treasure gems
that you matched. each could grant the player a bonus,
maybe 1 crystal per treasure gem matched. coalition
scoreboards will have normal ribbon scores. in the event
of a tie, ranking for those tied will be based on total
treasure count for each coalition.
this should allow players to play as much or as little as
they want. on average more time spent will yield more
crystals for themselves and maybe a better chance in the
rankings for their coalition.

HH

I like the treasure hunt! There should be upper limits, however, otherwise it will just encourage us to grind, grind, grind...

DBJones · February 2018

For the nodes, three starting with 2 charges would be better (combining two people's ideas). If they want to keep all five, making recharges every 12-15 hours would work, and also reduce the problem with events ending at awkward times.

Kinesia · February 2018

I love the supports, but they need to either be untargettable by removal or @spesler suggestion.
I've been using demolish as mana gain in Koth, it's fun for me but it shouldn't work.

@wereotter says exactly what I came to say. Have objectives that work with the 2 tribes the node is based on, one objective for each tribe. But things that can still be done by anyone.
Reinforcing creatures for the vampire node is great.
Cast 5 spells for merfolk.
A lot of pirates have menace and want to attack, so how about "do 20 damage to the opponent with creatures"
The dino one of "have your creatures take x damage", that's excellent too.

These specific options also require cycling decks to do a little bit more, sure you _can_ do cycling, but you have to interrupt your cycling plan a little bit and actually cast a few things. This nudges away from it _without_ banning it.

theobserver · February 2018

Regarding charges, start with 2 and 5 max would be more consistent and better. 5 colours is fine, but don't overlap events, especially not nop which also has 5 nodes.

I can see myself playing tribal decks on blue, black and white nodes so they're fine. I just don't have the cards yet. Red and green actively dissuades tribal and should be changed.

Ninja lifetime bug needs to be fixed to make it easier on black.

I would also increase the tribal buffs.

bk1234 · February 2018

Problem: Elimination of rare rewards.
Further explanation of problem -- Rare rewards are one of the keys to engaging and retaining new to game players. Top tier players don't need them (I already have half of the rares in this set in less than 2 weeks), but mid-game and new-to-game players depend on rares (and do AMAZING things with them) to be competitive in the game. In addition, most top 100 coalitions happily accept bronze and silver players and relish the opportunity to help them build their collections and engage deeper in the game.

Solution: Bring back the rares.

WiLDRAGE · February 2018

The easiest way to fix the indestructible support is to put them on Loyalty gems instead of colored ones. I'm not sure if the code allows for that, but it would mechanically be a good way to prevent the support issue.

As far as primary objectives are concerned, I would rather see some multi-part objectives such as:

Cast X Pirates and find X Treasures.
Cast and buff X Merfolks.
Cast X Dinosaurs and X Humans.
Cast or reinforce X Vampires and gain X life.

Remove all HP related objectives, be it Take X damage or Have less than X life; they are boring and tedious.

Get rid of diametrically opposed objectives in the same event (Summon X or less creatures / Lose X or less creatures / Destroy X creatures). It comes down to matchmaking if you can even complete these objectives for certain players.

Reduce the number of refreshes and/or reduce the duration of the event.

Ban Omniscience or have it reduce by 2 shields each spell. This support is predatory as hell.

tfg76 · February 2018

Problem: Length of event

I like the idea of rotating colors, but if not: Start with one charge, end on Sunday evening UTC.

Problem: Tricky objectives

I like tricky objectives, but too much comes down to luck with e.g. kill 5 and win in 10. As stated before, doing this consistently requires you to create creatures for your opponent, which comes in a very limited card set. Lose 5 creatures and win in 10 is a much better objective - tricky, but can be built around to achieve consistently. I like that they did not do "play 5 vampire merfolk" and instead try to push the tribes (but see below!).

Problem: Too little Ixalan

To be honest, this is mostly about Ixalan cards being very very very bad. If the event was solely about pushing these up to "normal" power level, it'd have to push really hard and favor the people who were able to buy a bunch of cards early. I like the idea of pushing them by giving certain bonuses, and I love the implementation of these "static" supports! I think the solution is to fix the cards themselves to make them at a just slightly lower power level than regular commons and uncommons in HOU (barring broken stuff like New Perspectives). Then the bonuses would award you enough to actually play them. Most cards in IX could reduce their cost by 3-5 without becoming overpowered. Also, some of the secondaries are counter to the intention of the cards you would play there.

Problem: New point structure

Assuming the new point structure is supposed to be 5/5/5, it puts a huge weight on achieving the "secondary" objectives. This actually makes it so that losing is "less bad", since if you do a really good job on achieving secondaries in general, you can make up for that one loss. I like that, since it avoids "troll" decks. It doesn't combine well with the weird secondaries of course.

TomB · February 2018

Problem: Five nodes is way too many/Objectives don't make sense/We wanted to use our Ixalan cards.

Solution: I think 4 nodes, 1 for each "tribe", would be perfect. I would allow any color PW on each node, keep the current format of no points for winning/points scored only for achieving the secondary objectives, and rework the secondaries to be oriented for each individual tribe, ie: Dino node requires minimum 3 dinos in the deck, Pirate node 3 bucs, etc.. Make summoning X tribe critters the first secondary while the 2nd should be something related to the node's tribe (Enrage, Explore, Treasure finding etc.).

I think the recharges and recharge times are fine, as people aren't required to play all the charges to make progression are they?

FindingHeart8 · February 2018

Bring back 5 event points for winning a match, no participating player should win and get nothing but a mere 100xp. Especially every other event still rewards 5 points just for winning. This isn't training grounds.

**obviously** Make it so it's possible for players below the top tier to obtain both objectives, so more reasonable objectives.

I'm on board with promoting XLN cards, but I'd hate for this to turn into another Fate is Rarely Fair, where the only players that had the advantage where the few that had obtained Boomship

tfg76 · February 2018

@TomB I'm tired of people saying "you don't have to play beyond progression". There are two ways of playing these events: casually (to progression), and competitively (try to win/do well in the event either individually or for the coalition). For the latter, you are required to play all charges to do well. I think the latter mode should be there and be fun and feasible without an incredible investment (12-15 hours over a weekend is insane for a mobile game).

bk1234 · February 2018

tfg76 said:

Problem: New point structure

Assuming the new point structure is supposed to be 5/5/5, it puts a huge weight on achieving the "secondary" objectives. This actually makes it so that losing is "less bad", since if you do a really good job on achieving secondaries in general, you can make up for that one loss. I like that, since it avoids "troll" decks. It doesn't combine well with the weird secondaries of course.

Can I also point out in statement of problem on this that the current point structure only requires you to play and win 8 games to get progression. Considering the structure of this event is (obviously) not pleasing to people that means 8 games and they quit.The HOD structure had 7 points possible which meant that 18 games had to be completed. At 5 nodes you are looking at one charge plus three games versus 3 nodes which was 6 full charges to get progression (with a perfect score). I mean if they want people to log in and play -- this point structure isn't the way to do it.

madwren · February 2018

TomB said:

rework the secondaries to be oriented for each individual tribe, ie: Dino node requires minimum 3 dinos in the deck, Pirate node 3 bucs, etc..

This highly skews competition due to the vagaries of everyone's collection. It rewards those who are at the high end and penalizes those who are new to the game or didn't have a gigantic stock of crystals to dump on the new set on release day. Remember the SOI event (whose name I can't recall)?

If I have Ulrich, Sage, and Geier Reach Bandit, while some other fellow is forced to use Conduit of the Storms, Hinterland Logger, and Kessig Forgemaster, then that is a ridiculous competitive advantage.

All objectives should be reasonably achievable by all players, but forcing specific types of cards to be in the deck is not a way to do it.

madwren · February 2018

tfg76 said:

@TomB I'm tired of people saying "you don't have to play beyond progression". There are two ways of playing these events: casually (to progression), and competitively (try to win/do well in the event either individually or for the coalition). For the latter, you are required to play all charges to do well. I think the latter mode should be there and be fun and feasible without an incredible investment (12-15 hours over a weekend is insane for a mobile game).

To add to this, there seems to be a minority opinion on these forums that wanting to win at a competitive game indicates some sort of faulty mindset.

Imagine if competitive endeavors were all like that:

Football player: I'm sorry, I think we should use helmets because it's really painful to get hit all the time
Random opinion: Well, you shouldn't run so hard, maybe you should just get out of bounds and let someone else do the competing

Golf player: Hey, I think that we shouldn't be penalized if wind causes our ball to move on the green after we've addressed it
Random opinion: Well, you should just play for fun and not be so focused on winning, just because it's an unfair penalty that arbitrarily benefits your opponents

Many people play this game to win. To excel. It is designed as a competitive game. "Don't play" is not a solution for those who want to engage with the game--engagement that is necessary for the game's health. It's a reductive argument that implies the only possible game state is the existing one, and therefore the onus of change lies on the player. That's simply not true. The onus lies on Oktagon to create an environment that stimulates and encourages competition.

Otherwise, the game is going to continue dying a slow death.

babar3355 · February 2018

Taking from my favorite ideas on this thread and elsewhere... here is my version of the final product.

Event nodes:

Node 1: Clash of Waves and Cannons - Cast 3 Merfolk or Pirates, Explore 3 or more times
Node 2: Through Fasts and High Waters - Cast 3 Pirates or Vampires, Reinforce creatures 5 times
Node 3: Visions of Glory and Gold - Cast 3 Pirates or Dinosaurs, Capture 10 or more treasures
Node 4: Blessings of Rivers and Jungles - Cast 3 Merfolk or Dinosaurs, Regenerate 15 life on creatures you control.
Node 5: War of Sun and Dusk - Cast 3 Humans or Dinosaurs, Activate the enrage ability 3 times

Only 3 nodes will be played in a single weekend event. The colors will not be locked to the node but rather a rotating mechanic. Someone better at stats can figure out all of the combinations, but it is dozens of possible combinations which will constantly keep the game feeling fresh. Also, the synergies of the overlays will be applicable. Finally, it will limit the relative strength of cycling as there are other casting requirements that will either make cycling less smooth or just incentivize players away from cycling.

I am agnostic to shortening the event. I don't mind the 3 day HoDs... But I could be persuaded in either direction.

Additionally, some colors will have tough access to certain nodes (white doesnt have merfolk or pirates). But there are plenty of good dual colored walkers where this should not be a problem. And if it is a problem for newer players... well, that's part of how a progressive game works. I couldn't get a perfect score in the first **** or OGW.

And finally, if this makes the game too easy, then somehow even the playing field. Improve Greg or add more 1 sided overlays that increase the difficulty. (Please not Enraged!)

babar3355 · February 2018

madwren said:

TomB said:

rework the secondaries to be oriented for each individual tribe, ie: Dino node requires minimum 3 dinos in the deck, Pirate node 3 bucs, etc..

This highly skews competition due to the vagaries of everyone's collection. It rewards those who are at the high end and penalizes those who are new to the game or didn't have a gigantic stock of crystals to dump on the new set on release day. Remember the SOI event (whose name I can't recall)?

If I have Ulrich, Sage, and Geier Reach Bandit, while some other fellow is forced to use Conduit of the Storms, Hinterland Logger, and Kessig Forgemaster, then that is a ridiculous competitive advantage.

All objectives should be reasonably achievable by all players, but forcing specific types of cards to be in the deck is not a way to do it.

Respectively disagree with this opinion. A good werewolves deck can be built without using the best werewolves. Trust me, I didn't get any of the big werewolves until 6 months after SOI was released. Yet I was still able to compete in Terrors and other events for top prizes. I guarantee it is a lot harder for these players to kill 5 and win in 10 rounds than it is for them to cast 3 dinosaurs or pirates.

And I will reiterate once more... silver level players probably shouldn't be able to go perfect in most events. After all, you can't beat Ganon with the wooden sword...

QuiksilverHg · February 2018

“After all, you can't beat Ganon with the wooden sword...”

I’m sure it’s been done...
but fitting metaphor.

bk1234 · February 2018

[MOD MIC ON] We are all passionate about our individual levels of play, but this conversation is off topic -- completion versus progression would be best served in a separate thread. Thanks! [//MOD MIC]

asm0deus · February 2018

The Legion of Dusk (white/black vampires)

The River Heralds (blue/green merfolk)

The Brazen Coalition (black/red/blue pirates)

The Sun Empire (white/red/green humans and dinosaurs)
4 nodes. Multi-colored nodes. Tribal 1st objective. Mechanic based 2nd objective. 1 or 2 initial charge, max 5 charges. 2 day event.
Maybe?

bk1234 · February 2018

asm0deus said:

The Legion of Dusk (white/black vampires)
The River Heralds (blue/green merfolk)
The Brazen Coalition (black/red/blue pirates)
The Sun Empire (white/red/green humans and dinosaurs)
4 nodes. Multi-colored nodes. Tribal 1st objective. Mechanic based 2nd objective. 1 or 2 initial charge, max 5 charges. 2 day event.
Maybe?

This is logical. I don't hate it.

TomB · February 2018

madwren said:

TomB said:

rework the secondaries to be oriented for each individual tribe, ie: Dino node requires minimum 3 dinos in the deck, Pirate node 3 bucs, etc..

This highly skews competition due to the vagaries of everyone's collection. It rewards those who are at the high end and penalizes those who are new to the game or didn't have a gigantic stock of crystals to dump on the new set on release day. Remember the SOI event (whose name I can't recall)?

If I have Ulrich, Sage, and Geier Reach Bandit, while some other fellow is forced to use Conduit of the Storms, Hinterland Logger, and Kessig Forgemaster, then that is a ridiculous competitive advantage.

All objectives should be reasonably achievable by all players, but forcing specific types of cards to be in the deck is not a way to do it.

Players with better cards have always had the advantage over players without them. There will always be people who've spent more, or been luckier with their pulls, and they will continue to win more whether they do it by making secondary objectives or not. In theory that's what the current Mastery system was supposed to promote - people with comparable collections facing off against one another.

Moreover, many of our events in the past have had similar "Summon X [insert creature type]" secondaries, and this set just screams out for a Tribal theme, don't you think? Why not take advantage of that and give us a reason to use our crystals on Ixalan boosters?

Lord knows we're not going to be doing it much otherwise...

Beyond Band-aids -- How to REALLY fix RtO

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