Understanding the PvP ecosystem in Versus events

JaguarJaguar Posts: 11 Just Dropped In
in MPQ General Discussion
Hello.

I have been a semi-pro gamer in the past and played at the top level of multiple MMOs. 
I have studied game design, game theory and mechanism design at a basic elementary level.
I am fairly new to MPQ(~300 days total, a couple of weeks # checking), and this is my understanding of the current PvP ecosystem. 

All this was not immediately obvious to me in the beginning. I am highlighting this information and my point of view in a post to hopefully propagate the knowledge and increase the level of understanding among the broader player base.


Terminology

Shard - The time slice a player chooses among the 5 options available when joining a Versus event
SCL - Shield Clearance Level
Bracket - Groups of 500 people who compete for rankings with each other. Brackets are created on a first come first serve basis of people joining the event
Seeing - Appearing as a node which one can attack
Seed nodes - These are computer generated very low-level nodes which yield 16-38 points and do not hit you back. 
Queueing - Placing a player as a target in one of the 3 nodes one has, but not attacking them, saving it for later.


Facts 1 - Basic pvp mechanics
  1. All players joining a Versus event get put into a bracket with 499 other players
  2. Every player in a shard can potentially see every other player in the same shard regardless of SCL or bracket
  3. One can only see opponents that are un-shielded
  4. Factors such as roster strength and your current point score in the event determine your chances of seeing or being seen by a particular player in the same shard as you
  5. First few dozens of joiners get 6-8 seed nodes. One can usually climb to 194-240 points from these without facing a 'real' opponent.
  6. Next several dozens of players get 3 seed nodes. One can climb to 101 points from these.
  7. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is unshielded, player A gains x points and player B loses x points
  8. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is shielded, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
  9. Player A can queue player B while player B is un-shielded but as long as the attack on player B ends after player B puts up a shield, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
  10. The top progression reward is at 1200 points


Assumptions
  1. First 100 joiners of any bracket get 8 seed nodes
  2. Next 150 joiners of any bracket get 3 seed nodes
  3. All the first 250 joiners of any bracket clear all their seed nodes. Resulting in about ~40000 points being added to the bracket from seed nodes. i.e. on average 80 points per player from seed nodes.


Inference derived from the facts and assumptions above
  1. There are only 2 ways to add points to a shard. Seed nodes and attacks on shielded opponents
  2. Attacking unshielded opponents only exchanges points between the players of the shard, and the shard as a whole does not gain or lose points.
  3. If nobody in a shard took attacks while being shielded, it would be impossible for most players in the shard to reach 900-1200 points. Since there are simply not enough points to go around.
  4. Attacking shielded people is an excellent and effective way to add points to the shard
  5. More the number of attacks on shielded targets -> more the number of points added to the shard -> more high-value targets -> higher the chances for people to hit 900-1200 points

Facts 2 - High-level pvp coordination
  1. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate amongst themselves to attack each other while shielded, thereby adding tons of points to their shard
  2. They do this by queueing each other in the brief minutes they are un-shielded but holding attacks. They make the attacks after the queued opponents are shielded.
  3. As a result, a far greater number of players in the shard are able to get to 1200 points
  4. This also results in some very high scores (3-4k is not uncommon) of the top players
  5. There exist, individuals and groups, who try to stop this from happening by suppressing scores


Facts 3 - Rewards
  1. Versus event progression rewards (SCL 7): 1x Standard Token + 1x Elite Token + 3x Event Tokens + 1x 3* Cover + 1x 4* Cover + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 25 CP
  2. 100% of the players can potentially achieve these progression rewards
  3. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7  - Top 5): 3x 3* Covers + 1x 4* Cover + 4500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 1 Heroic Token
  4. 1% of the players can achieve these top 5 placement rewards
  5. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 10): 3x 3* Covers + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 3x Elite Tokens + 1x Heroic Token
  6. 1% of the players can achieve these rank 5-10 placement rewards
  7. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 25): 3x 3* Covers + 2500 ISO + 50 HP + 3x Elite Tokens
  8. 3% of the players can achieve these rank 10-25 placement rewards


Opinions

  1. If in a shard, no attacks happened on a shielded player, it would be extremely difficult for most of the players in the shard to reach 900 - 1200 points. And very very few eventually would
  2. From a rewards perspective, it is in the best interest of a low/mid/casual player to not make attacks on high point targets(50+ points) immediately. But give them time to shield up, while holding them in queue. Normally 10 minutes is a solid waiting period
  3. More the number of people are in # check rooms or other kinds of coordination channels, more the number of people that will get to the 1200 point score in any given shard
  4. However this does require extra effort, and lazy/casual players could just follow Opinion number 2 above and still contribute to everyone(including themselves) benefitting from more points
  5. The progression rewards are far better than placement rewards. 
  6. PvP in MPQ is not really PvP.  It is in fact designed in a way where the players would get better rewards by colluding/cooperating than they would get by fighting each other in a true pvp spirit
  7. The score suppressors do it so that they can assert their superior roster strength and get top ranks more easily
  8. This happens to be detrimental to the majority of the players in a shard as fewer people are able to achieve 900-1200 points


PS: It is quite possible that some of the information here is inaccurate, and I hope the more knowledgeable and experienced folks will help me correct it.

PPS: Not sure if this is the most relevant forum for this post. Request the mods to move it to the relevant forum if there is one more suitable.
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Comments

  • SendikelmSendikelm Posts: 49 Just Dropped In
    Jaguar said:
    1. Attacking unshielded opponents only exchanges points between the players of the shard, and the shard as a whole does not gain or lose points.
    This is not true. If both players have the same amount of points winner gains 38 points while opponent loses 19 points.
  • PenniesForEveryonePenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2017
    Jaguar said:

    1. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is unshielded, player A gains x points and player B loses x points 
    1. Attacking unshielded opponents only exchanges points between the players of the shard, and the shard as a whole does not gain or lose points.
    2. If nobody in a shard took attacks while being shielded, it would be impossible for most players in the shard to reach 900-1200 points. Since there are simply not enough points to go around.
    This is not completely accurate.  Below a certain threshold (800 points maybe? someone will correct me) defeating an opponent will cause you to gain x points, but the player you beat will lose some number of points less than x relative to how close you are to that 800 point threshold.  So if I climb to 1000, I can hit a target below me worth 10 points to me, but they will only lose 1 or 2 points or something like that.  So you and a friend can actually attack each other back and forth never fighting another opponent and eventually you will both climb to 800 points or so.  Points are added in this way as well.

    The same logic applies to defensive losses.  If you take a 38 point fight and lose, you lose 38 points, but the person who you lost to gets a defensive win worth only half as many points (again, not clear on the exact math here).  This prevents defensive loss boosting which used to be a thing, and also allows for points to be removed from a shard by suppressors retreating to teams in fights worth very few points.
  • BorstockBorstock Posts: 1,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    Assumptions
    1. First 100 joiners of any bracket get 8 seed nodes
    2. Next 150 joiners of any bracket get 3 seed nodes



    ^^^  Is this true?  I thought part of it had to do with whether or not you have the game open when the slice begins, or has that just been my observation because if I do have it open when the slice begins, I tend to fall into one of those categories by default?


  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,910 Chairperson of the Boards
    You didn't even bring up retals.  If you are attacked and you hit back, you can get points, obviously.  The other person loses points.  (Anyone who has been trying to make a climb is familiar).   You always see the people who hit you (other than when the darned app resets and purges them from your queue).

    Anyway.  If you are floating (let's say around 300-500) and get hit a lot, there is a reasonable chance that you can come back and hit a lot of those players later after they shielded and retained a high score.  Or they didn't shield and are falling down, and you get less points.  Coordination can help with knowledge about this part if you want.

    Anyone shielding helps with points in the shard, regardless of coordination, as well as retaining their score.  If you climb to 900, say, rapidly and shield out, you potentially helped a lot of people who can later retal against you.  Many players don't bother, but that's their decision.
  • KolenceKolence Posts: 741 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2017
    PenniesForEveryone said:
    Jaguar said:

    1. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is unshielded, player A gains x points and player B loses x points 
    1. Attacking unshielded opponents only exchanges points between the players of the shard, and the shard as a whole does not gain or lose points.
    2. If nobody in a shard took attacks while being shielded, it would be impossible for most players in the shard to reach 900-1200 points. Since there are simply not enough points to go around.
    This is not completely accurate.  Below a certain threshold (800 points maybe? someone will correct me) defeating an opponent will cause you to gain x points, but the player you beat will lose some number of points less than x relative to how close you are to that 800 point threshold.  So if I climb to 1000, I can hit a target below me worth 10 points to me, but they will only lose 1 or 2 points or something like that.  So you and a friend can actually attack each other back and forth never fighting another opponent and eventually you will both climb to 800 points or so.  Points are added in this way as well.

    The same logic applies to defensive losses.  If you take a 38 point fight and lose, you lose 38 points, but the person who you lost to gets a defensive win worth only half as many points (again, not clear on the exact math here).  This prevents defensive loss boosting which used to be a thing, and also allows for points to be removed from a shard by suppressors retreating to teams in fights worth very few points.


    I believe the threshold is 1200 points, and on defensive wins, you only get one third of the points you would have won when attacking.
  • Rod5Rod5 Posts: 492 Mover and Shaker
    Below 1,000 points the amount of points you lose when you get hit is less than what the opponents gain. Hence points are always added to the shard at lower levels. In terms of really adding points to the shard though, it is much more efficient to hit an opponent 2-3 times when they are already shielded.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,936 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    Yeah there’s a lot of misinformation in the OP...

    Only read part way through and had to stop.
  • WelcomeDeathWelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
    Rod5 said:
    Below 1,000 points the amount of points you lose when you get hit is less than what the opponents gain. Hence points are always added to the shard at lower levels. In terms of really adding points to the shard though, it is much more efficient to hit an opponent 2-3 times when they are already shielded.
    It's actually zeroes out at closer to 1200 now.  It used to be 1000, but that line was moved when they changed defensive setups (aka removed cupcakes).  There's been no official statement that I'm aware of on the magic number, but some players testing it shortly after this change to scoring noticed it went even at around 1200.  

    And yes, there's a lot of misinformation in this thread, both in the OP and in several comments.  Someone should clean up the OP and maybe put it in tips and guides or something. Yeah.  Someone....
  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    Welcome Death said:
    Rod5 said:
    Below 1,000 points the amount of points you lose when you get hit is less than what the opponents gain. Hence points are always added to the shard at lower levels. In terms of really adding points to the shard though, it is much more efficient to hit an opponent 2-3 times when they are already shielded.
    It's actually zeroes out at closer to 1200 now.  It used to be 1000, but that line was moved when they changed defensive setups (aka removed cupcakes).  There's been no official statement that I'm aware of on the magic number, but some players testing it shortly after this change to scoring noticed it went even at around 1200.  

    And yes, there's a lot of misinformation in this thread, both in the OP and in several comments.  Someone should clean up the OP and maybe put it in tips and guides or something. Yeah.  Someone....
    Sorry, I don't have the mental capability to read through TWO garbage wall of text posts about PVP from "experts" in the same week.
  • WelcomeDeathWelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2017
    Bowgentle said:
    Welcome Death said:
    Rod5 said:
    Below 1,000 points the amount of points you lose when you get hit is less than what the opponents gain. Hence points are always added to the shard at lower levels. In terms of really adding points to the shard though, it is much more efficient to hit an opponent 2-3 times when they are already shielded.
    It's actually zeroes out at closer to 1200 now.  It used to be 1000, but that line was moved when they changed defensive setups (aka removed cupcakes).  There's been no official statement that I'm aware of on the magic number, but some players testing it shortly after this change to scoring noticed it went even at around 1200.  

    And yes, there's a lot of misinformation in this thread, both in the OP and in several comments.  Someone should clean up the OP and maybe put it in tips and guides or something. Yeah.  Someone....
    Sorry, I don't have the mental capability to read through TWO garbage wall of text posts about PVP from "experts" in the same week.
    It'll be in tips and guides, so you'll never see it

    Edit: just saw the thread you meant.  Noted.
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    Bowgentle said:
    Welcome Death said:
    Rod5 said:
    Below 1,000 points the amount of points you lose when you get hit is less than what the opponents gain. Hence points are always added to the shard at lower levels. In terms of really adding points to the shard though, it is much more efficient to hit an opponent 2-3 times when they are already shielded.
    It's actually zeroes out at closer to 1200 now.  It used to be 1000, but that line was moved when they changed defensive setups (aka removed cupcakes).  There's been no official statement that I'm aware of on the magic number, but some players testing it shortly after this change to scoring noticed it went even at around 1200.  

    And yes, there's a lot of misinformation in this thread, both in the OP and in several comments.  Someone should clean up the OP and maybe put it in tips and guides or something. Yeah.  Someone....
    Sorry, I don't have the mental capability to read through TWO garbage wall of text posts about PVP from "experts" in the same week.
    Yeah i know, right?  How ridiculous for someone to have some passion for a game they like, and post their thoughts and impressions on the official forum, like you and i are doing right now, while asking for feedback?  They are totally deserving of our sarcasm and condescension. 

    I'm sure if i went through yours, mine, and everyone else's  posts all i will find are pearls of wisdom worthy of being etched in stone somewhere. 
  • dudethtsawesomedudethtsawesome Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    Jaguar said:



    Assumptions
    1. First 100 joiners of any bracket get 8 seed nodes
    2. Next 150 joiners of any bracket get 3 seed nodes
    3. All the first 250 joiners of any bracket clear all their seed nodes. Resulting in about ~40000 points being added to the bracket from seed nodes. i.e. on average 80 points per player from seed nodes.



    Facts 2 - High-level pvp coordination
    1. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate amongst themselves to attack each other while shielded, thereby adding tons of points to their shard




    I'm not sure even the devs understand how the seeds are handed out.  I've joined pvp as the 50th player in my bracket and didn't have and seed teams and I've joined at 480ish and had 3 seed teams.  I think it has to do with how many active players maybe? 

    As for the 3rd party channels, does anyone use any other than Line?  Line seems to be the only one or at the least the main one that most use. 
  • AddaranAddaran Age Unconfirmed Posts: 72 Match Maker
    Just want to say, thank you Jaguar. 
    Even if you're not as expert as some of the people who commented, you at least took time to explain in a clear guide and define the terminology.


  • BoyWonder1914BoyWonder1914 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    Regardless of whatever mistakes may be in the OP, I have to say that I respect the intention, and appreciate the effort you went through to make this post. There are still many aspects of the post that are indeed correct, things that I've seen many people note as secret "rules" and clandestine knowledge that they never had access to. I especially appreciate you calling out the "rising tide raises all ships" phenomenon that occurs due people in third party groups adding points to a slice and allowing more folks to hit 900/1200+. 

    People love to claim that this kind of information is not available, so I always appreciate folks who make an effort to prove the opposite. It can always be cleaned up later, preferably by the folks that are so eager to point out mistakes and make negative comments about it rather than contribute to EVERYONE understanding the game better. 
  • WelcomeDeathWelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2017
    Jaguar said:
    Hello.

    I have been a semi-pro gamer in the past and played at the top level of multiple MMOs. 
    I have studied game design, game theory and mechanism design at a basic elementary level.
    I am fairly new to MPQ(~300 days total, a couple of weeks # checking), and this is my understanding of the current PvP ecosystem. 

    All this was not immediately obvious to me in the beginning. I am highlighting this information and my point of view in a post to hopefully propagate the knowledge and increase the level of understanding among the broader player base.


    Terminology

    Shard - The time slice a player chooses among the 5 options available when joining a Versus event
    SCL - Shield Clearance Level
    Bracket - Groups of 500 people who compete for rankings with each other. Brackets are created on a first come first serve basis of people joining the event
    Seed nodes - These are computer generated very low-level nodes which assume an enemy point value of 0 points.  The value of points gained from these nodes goes down as your score goes up.  The purpose of seed nodes is to establish defensive teams for the first players to join an event in any given shard, as defensive teams are only established by winning a match.
    Queueing - Placing a player as a target in one of the 3 nodes one has, but not attacking them, saving it for later.
    Dumping - Going into a battle and intentionally losing to a low value opponent so that your score goes down.  This tactic results in a net loss in points in a shard.

    Facts 1 - Basic pvp mechanics
    1. All players joining a Versus event get put into a bracket with 499 other players
    2. Every player in a shard can potentially see every other player in the same shard regardless of SCL or bracket
    3. One can only see opponents that are un-shielded
    4. Factors such as roster strength and your current point score in the event determine your chances of seeing or being seen by a particular player in the same shard as you
    5. Players joining in the first few minutes of an event can get multiple seed nodes, up to about 10 or so.  These can be used to climb up to about 245 points or so (some players use this technique in Lightning Rounds, as it's a fresh event every 2 hours, to farm iso)
    6. Players joining later in an event will sometimes get 3 seed nodes. One can climb to 101 points from these. It is unknown by the playerbase what affects getting 3 seeds vs not 3 seeds.
    7. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is unshielded, player A gains points and player B loses  points (more on this later)
    8. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is shielded, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
    9. Player A can queue player B while player B is un-shielded but as long as the attack on player B ends after player B puts up a shield, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
    10. The top progression reward is at 1200 points


    Assumptions
    (Snip).  Not really accurate and already reviewed above 


    Inference derived from the facts and assumptions above
    1. There are 3 ways to add points to a shard. Seed nodes, attacks on shielded opponents, as well as attacks on any opponent under a score of roughly 1200 (it used to be 1k but that figure was adjusted in September 2016 and hasn't officially been released.
    2. Attacking unshielded opponents builds points in a shard up until the person taking the hit is over 1.2k.  Then the points are just exchanged.
    3. If nobody in a shard took attacks while being shielded, it would be very difficult for most players in the shard to reach 900-1200 points. Since there are simply not enough points to go around.
    4. Attacking shielded people is an excellent and effective way to add points to the shard, but so is attacking anyone unshielded under 1.2k.
    5. The greater number of attacks on shielded targets -> the greater number of points added to the shard -> more high-value targets -> higher the chances for people to hit 900-1200 points

    Facts 2 - High-level pvp coordination
    1. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate amongst themselves to attack each other while shielded, thereby adding tons of points to their shard And ensuring anyone in the "in" group gets top placement spots. Those that have top scores often create personal truces with so called "snipers" to ensure they end up being the top scores.  These are the "good guys".
    2. They do this by queueing each other in the brief minutes they are un-shielded but holding attacks. They make the attacks after the queued opponents are shielded.
    3. As a result, a far greater number of players in the shard are able to get to 1200 points
    4. This also results in some very high scores (3-4k is not uncommon) of the top players.
          1A. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate  amongst themselves to attack anything unshielded that isn't in their group.  These groups will also dump points they have earned to ensure points in a shard stay very low and as few people reach 1200 as possible.  This makes placement easier with a lower score and conserves HP.  These groups tend to be smaller and also tend to make sure their players get top placement.  These are the "bad guys"

    Facts 3 - Rewards
    1. Versus event progression rewards (SCL 7): 1x Standard Token + 1x Elite Token + 3x Event Tokens + 1x 3* Cover + 1x 4* Cover + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 25 CP
    2. 100% of the players with at least dual champed 4* rosters and in a shield check room can potentially achieve these progression rewards
    3. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7  - Top 5): 3x 3* Covers + 1x 4* Cover + 4500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 1 Heroic Token
    4. 1% of the players can achieve these top 5 placement rewards
    5. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 10): 3x 3* Covers + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 3x Elite Tokens + 1x Heroic Token
    6. 1% of the players can achieve these rank 5-10 placement rewards
    7. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 25): 3x 3* Covers + 2500 ISO + 50 HP + 3x Elite Tokens
    8. 3% of the players can achieve these rank 10-25 placement rewards


    Opinions

    1. If in a shard, no attacks happened on a shielded player, it would be extremely difficult for most of the players in the shard to reach 900 - 1200 points. And very very few eventually would
    2. From a rewards perspective, it is in the best interest of a low/mid/casual player to not make attacks on high point targets(50+ points) immediately. But give them time to shield up, while holding them in queue. Normally 10 minutes is a solid waiting period (Unless they're placed ahead of you or your alliance mate in a bracket, then hit as fast as possible and as many times as possible to make sure you can get ahead, if that's your goal.)
    3. More the number of people are in # check rooms or other kinds of coordination channels, more the number of people that will get to the 1200 point score in any given shard (assuming that there aren't separate check rooms with separate interests and that groups are generally playing nice with other groups in the shard)
    4. However this does require extra effort, and lazy/casual players could just follow Opinion number 2 above and still contribute to everyone(including themselves) benefitting from more points (I agree with the premise to a point, but if you're not in the room, you take more hits and need to be as fast as possible, so don't wait!)
    5.   The progression rewards are far better than placement rewards. 
    6. PvP in MPQ is not really PvP.  It is in fact designed in a way where the players would get better rewards by colluding/cooperating than they would get by fighting each other in a true pvp spirit (But this is also a far less fun way to PvP.  Like you could get a 1:00 kill death ratio easily in a FPS if you only played matches against your friends and agreed to have exactly the same amount of kills, but that would be boring. This is why many many players end up quitting check rooms or use them off and on)
    7. The score suppressors do it so that they can assert their superior roster strength and get top ranks more easily
    8. This happens to be detrimental to the majority of the players in a shard as fewer people are able to achieve 900-1200 points (of course, play under 900 is virtually the same in every shard, so it actually benefits people that can hit 900 to play in low scoring shards and get top25 instead of needing 1500 for top 50 in a high scoring shard)


    PS: It is quite possible that some of the information here is inaccurate, and I hope the more knowledgeable and experienced folks will help me correct it.

    PPS: Not sure if this is the most relevant forum for this post. Request the mods to move it to the relevant forum if there is one more suitable.
    Edited anything I saw that was inaccurate, not trying to offend OP, but figure might as well have more accurate information.  Also, edited competitive PvP section because it totally disregarded an entire method of coordination.

    Edit:  just a thought.  This thread does not address how exactly point values are assigned to PvP targets.  I know there's a thread somewhere that explains it (maybe from whenever they changed to this system with the K value at 75?).  If someone could go ahead and link it that would be great.
  • PenniesForEveryonePenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2017
    Welcome Death said:
    Jaguar said:
    Hello.

    I have been a semi-pro gamer in the past and played at the top level of multiple MMOs. 
    I have studied game design, game theory and mechanism design at a basic elementary level.
    I am fairly new to MPQ(~300 days total, a couple of weeks # checking), and this is my understanding of the current PvP ecosystem. 

    All this was not immediately obvious to me in the beginning. I am highlighting this information and my point of view in a post to hopefully propagate the knowledge and increase the level of understanding among the broader player base.


    Terminology

    Shard - The time slice a player chooses among the 5 options available when joining a Versus event
    SCL - Shield Clearance Level
    Bracket - Groups of 500 people who compete for rankings with each other. Brackets are created on a first come first serve basis of people joining the event
    Seed nodes - These are computer generated very low-level nodes which assume an enemy point value of 0 points.  The value of points gained from these nodes goes down as your score goes up.  The purpose of seed nodes is to establish defensive teams for the first players to join an event in any given shard, as defensive teams are only established by winning a match.
    Queueing - Placing a player as a target in one of the 3 nodes one has, but not attacking them, saving it for later.
    Dumping - Going into a battle and intentionally losing to a low value opponent so that your score goes down.  This tactic results in a net loss in points in a shard.

    Facts 1 - Basic pvp mechanics
    1. All players joining a Versus event get put into a bracket with 499 other players
    2. Every player in a shard can potentially see every other player in the same shard regardless of SCL or bracket
    3. One can only see opponents that are un-shielded
    4. Factors such as roster strength and your current point score in the event determine your chances of seeing or being seen by a particular player in the same shard as you
    5. Players joining in the first few minutes of an event can get multiple seed nodes, up to about 10 or so.  These can be used to climb up to about 245 points or so (some players use this technique in Lightning Rounds, as it's a fresh event every 2 hours, to farm iso)
    6. Players joining later in an event will sometimes get 3 seed nodes. One can climb to 101 points from these. It is unknown by the playerbase what affects getting 3 seeds vs not 3 seeds.
    7. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is unshielded, player A gains points and player B loses  points (more on this later)
    8. When player A successfully attacks player B while player B is shielded, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
    9. Player A can queue player B while player B is un-shielded but as long as the attack on player B ends after player B puts up a shield, player A gains x points and player B loses 0 points
    10. The top progression reward is at 1200 points


    Assumptions
    (Snip).  Not really accurate and already reviewed above 


    Inference derived from the facts and assumptions above
    1. There are 3 ways to add points to a shard. Seed nodes, attacks on shielded opponents, as well as attacks on any opponent under a score of roughly 1200 (it used to be 1k but that figure was adjusted in September 2016 and hasn't officially been released.
    2. Attacking unshielded opponents builds points in a shard up until the person taking the hit is over 1.2k.  Then the points are just exchanged.
    3. If nobody in a shard took attacks while being shielded, it would be very difficult for most players in the shard to reach 900-1200 points. Since there are simply not enough points to go around.
    4. Attacking shielded people is an excellent and effective way to add points to the shard, but so is attacking anyone unshielded under 1.2k.
    5. The greater number of attacks on shielded targets -> the greater number of points added to the shard -> more high-value targets -> higher the chances for people to hit 900-1200 points

    Facts 2 - High-level pvp coordination
    1. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate amongst themselves to attack each other while shielded, thereby adding tons of points to their shard And ensuring anyone in the "in" group gets top placement spots. Those that have top scores often create personal truces with so called "snipers" to ensure they end up being the top scores.  These are the "good guys".
    2. They do this by queueing each other in the brief minutes they are un-shielded but holding attacks. They make the attacks after the queued opponents are shielded.
    3. As a result, a far greater number of players in the shard are able to get to 1200 points
    4. This also results in some very high scores (3-4k is not uncommon) of the top players.
          1A. There exist coordination channels using 3rd party apps like Line, where players of a shard coordinate  amongst themselves to attack anything unshielded that isn't in their group.  These groups will also dump points they have earned to ensure points in a shard stay very low and as few people reach 1200 as possible.  This makes placement easier with a lower score and conserves HP.  These groups tend to be smaller and also tend to make sure their players get top placement.  These are the "bad guys"

    Facts 3 - Rewards
    1. Versus event progression rewards (SCL 7): 1x Standard Token + 1x Elite Token + 3x Event Tokens + 1x 3* Cover + 1x 4* Cover + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 25 CP
    2. 100% of the players with at least dual champed 4* rosters and in a shield check room can potentially achieve these progression rewards
    3. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7  - Top 5): 3x 3* Covers + 1x 4* Cover + 4500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 1 Heroic Token
    4. 1% of the players can achieve these top 5 placement rewards
    5. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 10): 3x 3* Covers + 3500 ISO + 100 HP + 1 CP + 3x Elite Tokens + 1x Heroic Token
    6. 1% of the players can achieve these rank 5-10 placement rewards
    7. Versus event placement rewards (SCL 7 - Top 25): 3x 3* Covers + 2500 ISO + 50 HP + 3x Elite Tokens
    8. 3% of the players can achieve these rank 10-25 placement rewards


    Opinions

    1. If in a shard, no attacks happened on a shielded player, it would be extremely difficult for most of the players in the shard to reach 900 - 1200 points. And very very few eventually would
    2. From a rewards perspective, it is in the best interest of a low/mid/casual player to not make attacks on high point targets(50+ points) immediately. But give them time to shield up, while holding them in queue. Normally 10 minutes is a solid waiting period (Unless they're placed ahead of you or your alliance mate in a bracket, then hit as fast as possible and as many times as possible to make sure you can get ahead, if that's your goal.)
    3. More the number of people are in # check rooms or other kinds of coordination channels, more the number of people that will get to the 1200 point score in any given shard (assuming that there aren't separate check rooms with separate interests and that groups are generally playing nice with other groups in the shard)
    4. However this does require extra effort, and lazy/casual players could just follow Opinion number 2 above and still contribute to everyone(including themselves) benefitting from more points (I agree with the premise to a point, but if you're not in the room, you take more hits and need to be as fast as possible, so don't wait!)
    5.   The progression rewards are far better than placement rewards. 
    6. PvP in MPQ is not really PvP.  It is in fact designed in a way where the players would get better rewards by colluding/cooperating than they would get by fighting each other in a true pvp spirit (But this is also a far less fun way to PvP.  Like you could get a 1:00 kill death ratio easily in a FPS if you only played matches against your friends and agreed to have exactly the same amount of kills, but that would be boring. This is why many many players end up quitting check rooms or use them off and on)
    7. The score suppressors do it so that they can assert their superior roster strength and get top ranks more easily
    8. This happens to be detrimental to the majority of the players in a shard as fewer people are able to achieve 900-1200 points (of course, play under 900 is virtually the same in every shard, so it actually benefits people that can hit 900 to play in low scoring shards and get top25 instead of needing 1500 for top 50 in a high scoring shard)


    PS: It is quite possible that some of the information here is inaccurate, and I hope the more knowledgeable and experienced folks will help me correct it.

    PPS: Not sure if this is the most relevant forum for this post. Request the mods to move it to the relevant forum if there is one more suitable.
    Edited anything I saw that was inaccurate, not trying to offend OP, but figure might as well have more accurate information.  Also, edited competitive PvP section because it totally disregarded an entire method of coordination.

    Edit:  just a thought.  This thread does not address how exactly point values are assigned to PvP targets.  I know there's a thread somewhere that explains it (maybe from whenever they changed to this system with the K value at 75?).  If someone could go ahead and link it that would be great.
    Here you go!

    First number is the score, the next two numbers are the range where your point difference lies.

    Example:
    You have 950 points.
    If you want a 50 point match, you need someone at least 116 points above you (1066).
    If for some odd/ocd reason you want exactly 50, then you need someone between 116 and 125 points above you (1066-1075).
    Score		
38	0	9
39	10	18
40	19	27
41	28	37
42	38	46
43	47	56
44	57	65
45	66	75
46	76	85
47	86	94
48	95	104
49	105	115
50	116	125
51	126	136
52	137	147
53	148	158
54	159	169
55	170	181
56	182	193
57	194	206
58	207	219
59	220	233
60	234	248
61	249	263
62	264	279
63	280	296
64	297	315
65	316	335
66	336	357
67	358	381
68	382	409
69	410	440
70	441	477
71	478	524
72	525	584
73	585	676
74	677	869
75	870+


    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/34552/calculating-battle-score/p1

    credit to @GrumpySmurf1002
  • simonckleesimoncklee Posts: 15
    TL;DR: PVP ecosystem is complicated, what it needs is a lose-based progression system so that everyone always wins

    NB this is just a bit of snark, not aimed at the OP. I respect their intentions. Though I do question the value of stating credentials before weighing in on a match-3 game ;-)
  • PenniesForEveryonePenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
    simoncklee said:
    TL;DR: PVP ecosystem is complicated, what it needs is a lose-based progression system so that everyone always wins

    NB this is just a bit of snark, not aimed at the OP. I respect their intentions. Though I do question the value of stating credentials before weighing in on a match-3 game ;-)

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