Next Season PvP

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  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    The rockett said:I
    mexus said:
    Now you're bordering to being rude. Yes I am bad at maths, I was bullied for it, went to special classes etc. etc. I don't have to make that point.
    That aside, I have no idea how many players the game has, how many are active, competitive... Do you? Someone mentioned that 1% of the player base have learned to exploit the PVP system because they share secret rules someplace.
    Which 1% is that? That same few players that are always in the top placements of course. That was my point, in order to be one of them you have to join them at Line or Discord (?) and learn the secret rules Demi probably didn't intend us to play by. I don't think that should be necessary in a good coded game, it's time consuming enough to match the tiles and adding 1* covers to gain XP.

    Are these not the top 50 guys? IDK. I pulled a number. Top 5? Top 500? You tell me.

    My point is out.
    My interest in discussing PVP systems are no more and I flagged you for abuse since I didn't ask for your superior attitude regarding me being a bad calculator guy.

    So I was going to make anthoer comment but once I sat down on my couch and turned on the TV, I litterlly yelled at the TV because of this thread.  It was on USA network and on the show it had this kid interviewing people at Game Stop I think. He was asking them what type of gaming system they use, what is there favorite game etc. Then he asked where do you go for advice on the games. All of them said You Tube.  That's right!!  Every game out there has a metagame (as others have talked about) on how to play better, what to do and get more knowledge.  In fact, one of the biggest Whales used to put out You Tube videos all the time of new characters. This was cool to see how they worked.  

    Just this offseason I had a person contact me to see if I had a spot in one of our 2 alliances.  He was referred to me by another alliance that I am very close to. He wanted to learn PVP better and make that next step into a competitive alliance and be able to hit full progression in every PVP. So what did I say?  Heck Yes!!!  I have helped a lot of people on the interworkings of PVP as many others here that are commenting.   Very few of us would ever tell somebody no, we don't want to help you. You know why we want to help?  Because most of us were helped and like to train and teach more and more people. It's fun. There is no secret code, handshake or whatever you want to spin.   The MPQ community is very open and helpful even if some of us play a different style of game.  
    So why be so vocal against tapping in story mode?
    Learn the meta adapt and get all those rewards. Or is it ok to voice irritation and a desire for change with a flawed or broken system?
    D3/Demi have came out and said they do not want this and tried to change this to prevent tapping. In fact I have taken a whole different stance. I am now trying to show all how to tap tap tap instead of a select few.  I am trying to explain to more and more people on how to tap to keep up with pve. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    tiomono said:
    The rockett said:I
    mexus said:
    Now you're bordering to being rude. Yes I am bad at maths, I was bullied for it, went to special classes etc. etc. I don't have to make that point.
    That aside, I have no idea how many players the game has, how many are active, competitive... Do you? Someone mentioned that 1% of the player base have learned to exploit the PVP system because they share secret rules someplace.
    Which 1% is that? That same few players that are always in the top placements of course. That was my point, in order to be one of them you have to join them at Line or Discord (?) and learn the secret rules Demi probably didn't intend us to play by. I don't think that should be necessary in a good coded game, it's time consuming enough to match the tiles and adding 1* covers to gain XP.

    Are these not the top 50 guys? IDK. I pulled a number. Top 5? Top 500? You tell me.

    My point is out.
    My interest in discussing PVP systems are no more and I flagged you for abuse since I didn't ask for your superior attitude regarding me being a bad calculator guy.

    So I was going to make anthoer comment but once I sat down on my couch and turned on the TV, I litterlly yelled at the TV because of this thread.  It was on USA network and on the show it had this kid interviewing people at Game Stop I think. He was asking them what type of gaming system they use, what is there favorite game etc. Then he asked where do you go for advice on the games. All of them said You Tube.  That's right!!  Every game out there has a metagame (as others have talked about) on how to play better, what to do and get more knowledge.  In fact, one of the biggest Whales used to put out You Tube videos all the time of new characters. This was cool to see how they worked.  

    Just this offseason I had a person contact me to see if I had a spot in one of our 2 alliances.  He was referred to me by another alliance that I am very close to. He wanted to learn PVP better and make that next step into a competitive alliance and be able to hit full progression in every PVP. So what did I say?  Heck Yes!!!  I have helped a lot of people on the interworkings of PVP as many others here that are commenting.   Very few of us would ever tell somebody no, we don't want to help you. You know why we want to help?  Because most of us were helped and like to train and teach more and more people. It's fun. There is no secret code, handshake or whatever you want to spin.   The MPQ community is very open and helpful even if some of us play a different style of game.  
    So why be so vocal against tapping in story mode?
    Learn the meta adapt and get all those rewards. Or is it ok to voice irritation and a desire for change with a flawed or broken system?
    D3/Demi have came out and said they do not want this and tried to change this to prevent tapping. In fact I have taken a whole different stance. I am now trying to show all how to tap tap tap instead of a select few.  I am trying to explain to more and more people on how to tap to keep up with pve. 
    But those tapping threads carry the idea of lets  get everyone to do this broken mechanic so the devs will change it. Not huzzah here is how best to progress and get top placement, everyone go out and be the best you can.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Milk Jugz said:
    It's no wonder that the vets are starting to come off as you're being stupid, stubborn, or unwilling to play. We HAVE been where you are, you HAVEN'T been where we are. It does get better, keep progressing your roster, the rewards will come.
    This is an excellent point which isn't always acknowledged by players at an earlier stage in the game.  There's some extremely helpful people here and other outlets which are more than willing to help you develop your roster and with general game strategy.  I sincerely believe that 900 in PVP is well within my reach if I learn the system more completely (but I also think I'm inherently too casual to actually dedicate that much effort to PVP or PVE). 

    On the other hand, some vets (I'm not referring to you, MilkJugz) don't appreciate how much the game has changed since they were at that stage of the game.  For example, when I was a 2* player working on my 3*'s, the most important thing I needed to compete in PVP was to defeat the 1-2 yellow cover OML's which were just EVERYWHERE at the time being a meat-shield extraordinaire.  While there was a lot of useful advice I received from the community at large (I wouldn't have realized OBW double-dipped on strikes with her black without the forum), it wasn't always current with the 2* meta at the time, so while help was out there, I had to bear in mind that it was badly out of date in some respects.    

    The rockett said:
    D3/Demi have came out and said they do not want this and tried to change this to prevent tapping. In fact I have taken a whole different stance. I am now trying to show all how to tap tap tap instead of a select few.  I am trying to explain to more and more people on how to tap to keep up with pve. 

    Based on their announcement back at the time, it sounded like D3/Demi were primarily against tapping trivial nodes and the fact that they left the mechanism in place to continue tapping without any further comment/action seems to support that IMHO.  That being said, you have gone out of your way to explain the concept/strategy throughout multiple threads, so I do have to give credit where it's due for getting the message out there, even if it's a system you don't appear to support, in concept.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    @ZootSax

    It really doesn't take much to hit 9xx, 30-45 minutes with my roster. I play s1, generally join between 1.5 and 2 days left. Play here and there up to 575-700. I float and take hits until near the end. S1 ends at either 8 pm or 8 am my time. So on the 8 pm events with less than 3 hours left I climb to 9xx from wherever I got hit down to, generally 300-450. On the 8 am events I do the same climb within the last 8 hours. Shield out with the appropriate shield and done, generally t25 placement, very little effort. Costs me either 75 or 150 hp. And actually you earn 150 hp in the event, so every 2 events I'm +75hp, without other rewards.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    @ZootSax your right. I hate tapping to my core.  It takes out the pure enjoyment of pve talking to your bracket mates, and yes I talk to alot of them, and pushing each other on how fast you are going to clear.  Talking about your plan, your team, how you clear etc.  Tapping takes all that way and make a robot beat you.  In fact I would not doubt if somebody has a pro....(wait I can not talk about this. I do not want bars on my avatar)....them. So yes, I hate tapping but until it is gone, I will try to put a guide out on how to tap tap tap your way to victory.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    @ZootSax your right. I hate tapping to my core.  It takes out the pure enjoyment of pve talking to your bracket mates, and yes I talk to alot of them, and pushing each other on how fast you are going to clear.  Talking about your plan, your team, how you clear etc.  Tapping takes all that way and make a robot beat you.  In fact I would not doubt if somebody has a pro....(wait I can not talk about this. I do not want bars on my avatar)....them. So yes, I hate tapping but until it is gone, I will try to put a guide out on how to tap tap tap your way to victory.
    A guide?  I’m sorry but you are unashamedly doing with the intention of getting it abolished. Don’t pretend like you’re learning the meta to get the rewards. You’re doing what your crowd always does (and why I’ve been so up in arms about you guys recently). Creating a cabal of players to enforce your will and make the game play the way you want it to be played / most benifical to you. 
  • Tiggida
    Tiggida Posts: 64 Match Maker
    edited December 2017
    broll said:
    Piro_plock said:
    broll said:
    The main irony I see here is so many people in here are saying wins based was fine, the only problem was the CP?  Then tell me why there was all the snark about how great the old system is when all I asked was if there would be further improvements?  No one is saying the as implemented wins based system was perfect.  It has several flaws.
    Win-based progression system has one inherent flaw that can't be removed, no matter how much you'll tweak the progression thresholds. It treats every win the same, no matter how hard the fight was. At least in point based system stronger rosters tend to have higher scores, so on average a more difficult fight will be more rewarding. Neither of those solutions is perfect, but I learned to live with point-based one. If anything, I'd tweak the calculation of the point value of a match to include relative team strength, because (almost) pure Elo is pretty good for symmetric multiplayer, but this isn't the case in MPQ.

    Also, about all those unwritten rules. Ever heard of a concept called metagame? Pretty much every multiplayer game (not limited to video games) has one. If you want to be really good at a game (and I'm pretty sure that getting 14 out of 15 available progression rewards is better than average), you need to take it into account.
    It can be removed with an overhaul.  I've long been a proponent of a points based system where losses don't take away any progression points.  This IMO would be the perfect best of both worlds scenario.  You get the variable points based on targets + the no backsliding progression of win based.
    I think a lot of people are failing to see one thing that is right in front of all of our faces. That is that this game is designed to be super stingy with rewards. They obviously don't want everyone at every level to get them. That's why players have almost been forced to work together to work around the system.  I suggested before doing 2 checkpoints. One at 400 and the other at 700.  It's a compromise that still keeps the 1200pt cp gated for less developed rosters. It also kind of gates off the 575pt cp and 900pt 4* cover. Tiebreakers at the 2 checkpoints would have to be addressed, but I think this solution could encourage more shield usage because people will try to hop to the next checkpoint and/or to the next progression reward. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    @ZootSax your right. I hate tapping to my core.  It takes out the pure enjoyment of pve talking to your bracket mates, and yes I talk to alot of them, and pushing each other on how fast you are going to clear.  Talking about your plan, your team, how you clear etc.  Tapping takes all that way and make a robot beat you.  In fact I would not doubt if somebody has a pro....(wait I can not talk about this. I do not want bars on my avatar)....them. So yes, I hate tapping but until it is gone, I will try to put a guide out on how to tap tap tap your way to victory.
    So now it's ok to teach people how to tap efficiently, but if they tap they are some form of cheating robot? It' all so clear now.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    @shartattack Thank You!
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well I'm going into lurk mode. I'm just going to read announcements and updates because those are the only things that actually affect my playing.

    Way too many opinionated and stubborn people on here, myself included.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    shartattack said:
    tiomono said:
    The rockett said:

    So now it's ok to teach people how to tap efficiently, but if they tap they are some form of cheating robot? It' all so clear now.
    rockett's stated mission is to teach everyone to tap so it becomes so prevalent that d3 will do something about it.  he has stated multiple times that he hates it.

    you can be easily against wins based and tapping
    both strategies favor mindless repetition, rather than skill, strategy, and decision making.
    I don't disagree with those last two statements, but in favor of balance shouldn't both be an option?  In a better model I would think both should be viable and create more competition with people picking their method and battling vs you accept the one preordained methodology or lose.  If I'm PvPing in a balanced fighting game the speedy skillful character shouldn't be auto win against the tankier brute force character.  I think the methods of shield hopping/battle chats/grills/etc needs a couter-balance in brute force (and neither should be able to trump the other easily)

    Also all the skill, strategy, and decision making in the world aren't gonna help you if you can't play that the 5 optimal times for PvE.  Tapping IMO wasn't removed during the first nerf of it to allow it to be an option for people in that spot.  

    Ultimately the real problem in all of this is the devs have no idea how to strike that balance or fix any of these problems...
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    shartattack said:
    tiomono said:
    The rockett said:

    So now it's ok to teach people how to tap efficiently, but if they tap they are some form of cheating robot? It' all so clear now.
    rockett's stated mission is to teach everyone to tap so it becomes so prevalent that d3 will do something about it.  he has stated multiple times that he hates it.

    you can be easily against wins based and tapping
    both strategies favor mindless repetition, rather than skill, strategy, and decision making.
    I don't disagree with those last two statements, but in favor of balance shouldn't both be an option?  In a better model I would think both should be viable and create more competition with people picking their method and battling vs you accept the one preordained methodology or lose.  If I'm PvPing in a balanced fighting game the speedy skillful character shouldn't be auto win against the tankier brute force character.  I think the methods of shield hopping/battle chats/grills/etc needs a couter-balance in brute force (and neither should be able to trump the other easily)

    Also all the skill, strategy, and decision making in the world aren't gonna help you if you can't play that the 5 optimal times for PvE.  Tapping IMO wasn't removed during the first nerf of it to allow it to be an option for people in that spot.  

    Ultimately the real problem in all of this is the devs have no idea how to strike that balance or fix any of these problems...
    That last statement I can agree 100% on.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    broll said:
    shartattack said:
    tiomono said:
    The rockett said:

    So now it's ok to teach people how to tap efficiently, but if they tap they are some form of cheating robot? It' all so clear now.
    rockett's stated mission is to teach everyone to tap so it becomes so prevalent that d3 will do something about it.  he has stated multiple times that he hates it.

    you can be easily against wins based and tapping
    both strategies favor mindless repetition, rather than skill, strategy, and decision making.
    I don't disagree with those last two statements, but in favor of balance shouldn't both be an option?  In a better model I would think both should be viable and create more competition with people picking their method and battling vs you accept the one preordained methodology or lose.  If I'm PvPing in a balanced fighting game the speedy skillful character shouldn't be auto win against the tankier brute force character.  I think the methods of shield hopping/battle chats/grills/etc needs a couter-balance in brute force (and neither should be able to trump the other easily)

    Also all the skill, strategy, and decision making in the world aren't gonna help you if you can't play that the 5 optimal times for PvE.  Tapping IMO wasn't removed during the first nerf of it to allow it to be an option for people in that spot.  

    Ultimately the real problem in all of this is the devs have no idea how to strike that balance or fix any of these problems...
    That last statement I can agree 100% on.
    Sweet!  We can agree on something!


    Now we fight our common enemy the devs?  LOL
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:

    Also all the skill, strategy, and decision making in the world aren't gonna help you if you can't play that the 5 optimal times for PvE.  Tapping IMO wasn't removed during the first nerf of it to allow it to be an option for people in that spot.  
    Tapping doesn't help at all if you can't play around the end times..
    Tapping is done to get greater than optimal scores by tapping one node for hours and finishing with a perfect grind on the other nodes. If you can't do the last, you will need several hours extra to break even on that loss.. 
    And that point you're better off just 7ckearing and accepting t50/t100

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