***** tier throws off the * tier system

lukewin · September 2015

11/20/15 EDIT

Original post is below this edit and I've updated the title to reflect the discussion I'd like to see / participate in. 2 months since 5* characters have been available and I still stand behind my original thoughts on the 5* tier.

Now we've actually seen that rostering 5* characters can wreak havoc on the gameplay for those that don't already have max 3* / 4* rosters. In regards to PVE, where scaling takes into account your roster, adding a 5* character is going to inflate the average level of your roster. (The difficulty in a Story mission is based on the best team you could bring to bear on that mission.) There have been plenty of people reporting that rostering a 5* made PVE unplayable and selling it, made PVE playable again. Other than a mention of it being looked at/worked on, there hasn't been much from D3 Go! or Demiurge, since the initial statements that 5* would have no effect on PVE.

I think removing the 5* classification, but keeping the characters might help return things back to normal. Not sure how the coding aspect would be, but maybe replacing 5* with a 0, might be a suggestion. If the scaling formula only took levels of characters with a * designation into account, then having OML/SS/Phoenix on your roster wouldn't matter, because they'd be invisible to the formula. I have no idea if anything I'm suggesting would be able to be implemented, but I'd rather make a suggestion that could help, so I can balance out the complaining I do about it.

Original post

I know this should probably be in one of the other 5* thread, but I would rather it not be buried in a big thread and possibly overlooked. I am looking forward to the release of the Silver Surfer and the 5*s. However, I don't think they should be classified in the * system though. They should still exist, but they should be listed as a different class or another distinction, so that the * ranking system isn't affected the way that it will be if they remain as 5*.

Currently, this is how the * ranking system is.

* / Starts at lvl / Ends at lvl / (jumps from previous tier)
1 / 1 / 50
2 / 15 / 94 (14 / 44)
3 / 40 / 166 (25 / 72)
4 / 70 / 270 (30 / 104)
5 / 255 / 450 (185 / 180)

That's a huge jump and almost seems like it'd be appropriate for the last * rank that will exist, not the 5th. But since we don't know how many *s the game may end up with, why have such a huge gap? It would mean that if we ever do see 6*s, they'd make the 1-3* characters irrelevant. I don't mind the levels that SS and the other 2 will start and end at, because they are meant for the elder game, as Will and Miles said in the video, but if they weren't classified as 5*, but had some other classification, then that gives the game room to grow into a 5* and eventual 6* and beyond without having to have super powerful characters as new characters.

How it could look

* / Starts at lvl / Ends at lvl / (jumps from previous tier)
1 / 1 / 50
2 / 15 / 94 (14 / 44)
3 / 40 / 166 (25 / 72)
4 / 70 / 270 (30 / 104)
5 / 120 / 410 (50 / 140)
Epic / 255 / 450

So 5* tier don't have to exist yet. Silver Surfer and the other characters could be some other classification, and the eventual 5*s could start similar to the way that the current * system is set up. We could be collecting SS and the other 2, while still building up the 4* class and hopefully injecting more characters into all the * tiers, not just 4*s. Then, move on to 5*, but keep the inability to buy covers / or not, depending on what the bean counters want. The game would continue to progress as it has, and not limit itself because it wanted to introduce Silver Surfer and the other 2 as 5*s. I know that the ISO to go from 120 to 410 would be nuts, but that's a different issue.

Thoughts?

Mawtful · September 2015

lukewin wrote:

It would mean that if we ever do see 6*s, they'd make the 1-3* characters irrelevant.

Silver Surfer will already make 1-3* characters irrelevant. IceIX seems to think that's not so much of a problem, his exact response was;

IceIX wrote:

You don't take a 2* into a fight with 4*s. Why would you intend to take a 3* into a fight with 5*s?

I wonder if the players using MNMags + CStorm to beat max level 4* teams know about that?

For 7 AP, Cosmic Beam one-hits most of the 3* tier and below; if you include match-damage only Hulk, Thor, Ragnarok, and Grocket can survive it with just enough health that another red match from Surfer will finish them off. This means he makes short work of a lot of the 4* tier as well; but none will stand up to it the second time around.

Something else that IceIX did mention (although I can't find the post) was that eventually boosted 4*'s will be closer to the 5* power level. Which is good, because unboosted 4*'s won't really make a dent in a 5* character.

With all that said, MPQ will still "survive" the introduction of 5*'s, because the numbers I'm throwing about are in regard to a fully levelled 5* character - which we probably won't see too many of for some time. However, I do see it as the beginning of the end. For the first four tiers there was always a kind of obvious goal to work towards to push through the transition into the next level of play. But getting from the 4* tier to the 5* tier is mostly dependent on luck. That works both ways - if you're a 4* player with bad luck, you'll get frustrated that your hard work is "unrewarded", and if you're a 1* player that gets lucky, you'll invalidate most of the challenges that you face - which most people will find boring. Bored and unhappy players stop logging in.

I am still of the belief that the 4* tier needed to be more entertaining before 5*'s were introduced. Start re-running the 4* featured PvP events; apparently the argument against this is there will be too much repetition. To that I say: tinykitty, run one a week - there are currently 15 different 4*'s, that's nearly 3 full seasons - and you'll have another 6 or so by the time you get to the end, which is at least another seasons worth before you have to repeat. Increase the reward tiers for these events; if you want 4* to be the new standard of the meta, you need to start getting more 4*'s into players' rosters.

Anyway, that didn't happen. But this too shall pass, I guess.

Unknown · September 2015

Again there should be matchmaking safeguards guaranteeing 2 star teams get matched up with the like, 3 star teams the same, 4 star teams, the same. Given the focus on launching 4 star characters, it is fair to assume d3 is working towards some sort of leveled pvp matchmaking. The release of a 5 star character is simply a wildcard. Given their nebulous, ponderous process of procuring such covers - upgraded 5 star silver surfer owners will be, for a reasonable amount of time, be limited to a select few who are already high powered and members of a high powered alliance.

Do what you want, but don't pretend your goal is to make an inclusive game that is inclusive and universally engaging.

Tannen · September 2015

arm fall off boy wrote:

Again there should be matchmaking safeguards guaranteeing 2 star teams get matched up with the like, 3 star teams the same, 4 star teams, the same.

I disagree. If you want to choose to limit yourself to only attacking 2* teams, that's fine, but I do not want "a system" in place that forces me to play at whatever level it thinks I should be playing at.

Cheers.

lukewin · September 2015

Mawtful wrote:

lukewin wrote:

It would mean that if we ever do see 6*s, they'd make the 1-3* characters irrelevant.

Silver Surfer will already make 1-3* characters irrelevant. IceIX seems to think that's not so much of a problem, his exact response was;

IceIX wrote:

You don't take a 2* into a fight with 4*s. Why would you intend to take a 3* into a fight with 5*s?

I wonder if the players using MNMags + CStorm to beat max level 4* teams know about that?

For 7 AP, Cosmic Beam one-hits most of the 3* tier and below; if you include match-damage only Hulk, Thor, Ragnarok, and Grocket can survive it with just enough health that another red match from Surfer will finish them off. This means he makes short work of a lot of the 4* tier as well; but none will stand up to it the second time around.

cut for length-

Right now though, you can take 2* and 3* into battle against 4*, because they start off at level 70, so unless you're squaring off against someone that's had the time/money to level them up, you can still take them on. You couldn't really take either into battle against current 5* since they start off at level 255. Imagine if they had introduced 4* at level 140. That would be a parallel example because it's not equal to a maxed tier below, but it is still pretty closed to a maxed tier below character. I'd say that's the biggest potential issue, because every new 5* they'd introduce, would start off as 255, and have health comparable to an almost maxed 4*, prolonging PVE and PVP matches where you're facing off against those characters.

The main point of my post was that by changing them into something other than 5* gives the game room to grow into a 5* tier and eventual 6* tier and beyond without having to have every new character be super powerful.

Vhailorx · September 2015

I think that the 5*s are so far above the 4*s for a couple of reasons:

(1) The starting level is high because they are intended to be useful a lower number of covers. So the old model that required 8-10 covers had to be changed.

(2) the final level, and the crazy high health and match damage are clearly head and shoulders above the existing ranks. But as the devs have said in the past, 4*s are currently designed to be just a little bit better than 3*s. And that's a really hard design challenge (how can you make new characters that interesting to play, fell new, and also aren't so much better than 3*s that they broke the game). I think the intent here is to make tons of space between 3*s and 5*s, and then bump the 4*s up once more players start to moving into 5* land.

I don't know if this plan will work. And these health and match damage levels are a huge shift in the game, so we will have to see how it goes.

Unknown · September 2015

too late, bub

simonsez · September 2015

Tannen wrote:

I do not want "a system" in place that forces me to play at whatever level it thinks I should be playing at.

Unintentionally great argument against personal scaling in PvE

GurlBYE · September 2015

I think a big mistake in the process is if they focus on 5 stars.

When 3 was introduced, all the tiers should have been constantly being nourished instead of a constantly end-loaded approach.

5 star itself still seems borked, and if the game weren't so focused on competition in every aspect it wouldn't be such a humongous deal to have something so powerful being a looming threat.

Dayv · September 2015

lukewin wrote:

I know this should probably be in one of the other 5* thread

It really should. There's too many separate topics on 5* reactions right now. I'm going to leave this one unlocked for now since you're discussing a specific question (does 5* as announced skip a logical tier?), but it'll probably get locked in favor of the main thread tomorrow.

Buret0 · September 2015

The jump from 2* to 4* should be the same as the jump from 3* to 5*. I'm all for it, but I think that tripling health from a max boosted 4* is too far.

A boosted 3* roster can compete in 4* land without more than a decently covered 4* at level 200 to 230. The same should go with the progression to 5*s. Match damage should be in the low 100s. Damage per AP should be around 850 to 1000. A huge 5* tank should have 30K health, while the average 5* should have around 19K to 25K.

Instead of moving the bar by boosting 4*s once 5*s become the norm, they should be building the 5*s to just be much better 4*s... not making a whole tier that breaks the mold of the game.

Even the highest boosted damage output in the game right now, iirc, is Full Blast. Making a character that, by himself, can eat 50

AP worth of boosted damage from Cyclops and probably still be standing because his true healing can undo more than a maxed out full blast is a little crazy.

I'm all for 5* characters and for the way they are being rolled out, but creating a class of Gods and then breaking the current 3* to 4* paradigm just so that people can deal with them is a terrible plan.

TxMoose · September 2015

I have a question for you long time vets. how many 3*s were out when they came out with their first 4*?

with only 15 4*s now and still the vast majority of the playerbase lacking anything usable in that tier, and the 5*s being so much more powerful, I wonder how much potential this has to be broken strong. not really claiming it will be for sure, but I see the potential. I think it will be tempered by being so rare - most of the top will only have 1 or 2 covers by the end of the year I think. I do wonder if one (or a few of) the millionaires/celebrities/athletes playing the game will spend the 5-figure sum to get one up and running - several seasons of 1sts and 2k walks in the park with no shields. would get boring too though.

jojeda654 · September 2015

TxMoose wrote:

I have a question for you long time vets. how many 3*s were out when they came out with their first 4*?

X-Force was in the game since launch. There's an ancient thread around here where someone kept deleting his game save to re-roll until you got him.

IW was next, but I can't remember how many 3*s were added by then. Maybe 2 or 3. I think they were still adding 2*s like Captain America and Moonstone.

Isay_Isay · September 2015

At the beginning of the game, you needed more covers for each character too. For example, you had to invest 50 total covers into a 1*. At that point, 1* and 2* covers could be purchased with ISO before they changed to the system we have now.

EDIT: For reference based on the character rankings done since launch
December 2013
1* - 7
2* - 11
3* - 9
4* - 2

March 2014
1* - 7
2* - 12 (+1)
3* - 14 (+5)
4* - 2

June 2014
1* - 7
2* - 12
3* - 20 (+6)
4* - 2

October 2014
1* - 7
2* - 13 (+1)
3* - 25 (+5)
4* - 3 (+1)

December 2014
1* - 7
2* - 14 (+1)
3* - 31 (+6)
4* - 5 (+2)

May 2015
1* - 7
2* - 14
3* - 38 (+7)
4* - 10 (+5)

Today
1* - 8 (+1)
2* - 14
3* - 40 (+2)
4* - 17 (+7)
5* - 1

Dayv · September 2015

Isay_Isay wrote:

At the beginning of the game, you needed more covers for each character too. For example, you had to invest 50 total covers into a 1*. At that point, 1* and 2* covers could be purchased with ISO before they changed to the system we have now.

Funny thing about the change in covers from 50 to max 13 out of 15 possible, is that with the way covers rounded off with the change, a few people ended up with characters that had 5/5/5 powers. Of course, they were only 1*, mostly Iron Man, so it's still more of a trophy for those people than some game breaking exception.

Buret0 · September 2015

aesthetocyst wrote:

So recalling the "joys" of the 2* > 3* transition, and the 3* > 4* transition which, for non-whales, makes the 2* > 3* shift look swift, when you call for more of the same, implying an even slower transition to build merely marginally more powerful 5*s, all I can say is...

"No, thanks."

See my previous comment this thread.

I don't see 1,000 damage per AP or 30,000 health as being only marginally more powerful. Instead, they are dropping characters with over 50K health that will be invincible. You could run Silver Surfer with two 1*s and let the AI play for you and you'll still beat any maxed 4* team out there.

The answer, according to the devs, is to buff the 4*s once 5*s become prevalent, with no thought given to how that will affect people who are making the 3 to 4* transition. When 4*s are unbeatable to 3*s just so that they can compete with the overpowered 5*s... well, that's no solution. Sure, I don't think we are going to see that buff for months, but why admit that the buff is necessary? It means that there will be a few players with almost complete 5*s running around for multiple seasons, knowing that no one can compete with them.

My answer is to make sure that the buff is not required. Make the 5*s more powerful than 4*s. No problems there. Why 50K to 60K health? Are you really saying that you wouldn't chase down a 5* because he only has 30K in health? That's enough to separate the 3* and 5* classes by itself. Add in match damage at around 120 to 150 and you get a much more powerful character than anything in the 4* class.

But 60K health, with the ability to true heal nearly 17K for 12

AP? 586 tile match damage. Do you know what that means? It means

(a) 1,758 damage on a match 3;
(b) 2,344+~1,374=3,718 damage on a match 4; and
(c) 14,872 damage on a match 4 crit without any kind of damage boost.

That is just basic matching and is completely insane. Like I said, that makes a class of character that is unbeatable, except by someone else in that class. It becomes a battle of the Titans and only a battle of the Titans.

4*s in this game have gotten better. Deadpool, Thing, and Jean are far and away better than anything offered in 3* range. But they can't dominate the 3*s the way they are setting up the 5* class to do to the 4*s. Again, their answer is going to be to buff the 4*s so that they can eventually compete, but anything that can beat one of these Gods is going to be so powerful that the 3*s will no longer be able to compete with the 4*s.

The inevitable answer will be to have to buff the 3*s or create a chasm between 3 and 4*s that they are currently establishing for the 4* to 5*s. Then the 2*s can't compete, so they have to make them stronger or make the 2 to 3* transition impossible. OR worse yet, they force people to get lucky and pull a 5* that they can use undercovered to make the transition possible. That's not how the game is supposed to work.

In the end, after a lot of messing around with existing characters and making a lot of people unhappy, they are going to end up with a staggered system that more closely resembles what I'm offering without the need to destroy all of the balance in the game.

Make the 5*s. Make them tough to roster and tough to collect. Just make them tougher than 4*s, but not so tough that they will need to eventually rebalance the whole game just to react to the inevitable OP of the new class.

They have the power to design characters that don't require rebalancing. Instead they are holding out a God and asking us all to work and struggle and buy stuff to get this God. Then they are going to pull the rug out and rebalance the 4*s so that they can compete (or they risk driving away anyone who is trying to claim a legendary token who doesn't already have a maxed out 5*).

If you can't see how bad this character is going to be for the game, then you are being extremely short-sighted.

mjh · September 2015

I agree with OP and am going on record to say 5*s will get nerfed if too many people whale out tokens and get lucky with RNG too fast. We could very well see things toned down if they escalate too quickly.

Think about it, if you get even a 3/2/2 SS in the first couple weeks, you will almost dominate PVP, floating the entire time unshielded with rarely any attacks coming in and even rarer losses

Raffoon · September 2015

Buret0 wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

So recalling the "joys" of the 2* > 3* transition, and the 3* > 4* transition which, for non-whales, makes the 2* > 3* shift look swift, when you call for more of the same, implying an even slower transition to build merely marginally more powerful 5*s, all I can say is...

"No, thanks."

See my previous comment this thread.

I don't see 1,000 damage per AP or 30,000 health as being only marginally more powerful. Instead, they are dropping characters with over 50K health that will be invincible. You could run Silver Surfer with two 1*s and let the AI play for you and you'll still beat any maxed 4* team out there.

The answer, according to the devs, is to buff the 4*s once 5*s become prevalent, with no thought given to how that will affect people who are making the 3 to 4* transition. When 4*s are unbeatable to 3*s just so that they can compete with the overpowered 5*s... well, that's no solution. Sure, I don't think we are going to see that buff for months, but why admit that the buff is necessary? It means that there will be a few players with almost complete 5*s running around for multiple seasons, knowing that no one can compete with them.

My answer is to make sure that the buff is not required. Make the 5*s more powerful than 4*s. No problems there. Why 50K to 60K health? Are you really saying that you wouldn't chase down a 5* because he only has 30K in health? That's enough to separate the 3* and 5* classes by itself. Add in match damage at around 120 to 150 and you get a much more powerful character than anything in the 4* class.

But 60K health, with the ability to true heal nearly 17K for 12 AP? 586 tile match damage. Do you know what that means? It means

(a) 1,758 damage on a match 3;
(b) 2,344+~1,374=3,718 damage on a match 4; and
(c) 14,872 damage on a match 4 crit without any kind of damage boost.

That is just basic matching and is completely insane. Like I said, that makes a class of character that is unbeatable, except by someone else in that class. It becomes a battle of the Titans and only a battle of the Titans.

4*s in this game have gotten better. Deadpool, Thing, and Jean are far and away better than anything offered in 3* range. But they can't dominate the 3*s the way they are setting up the 5* class to do to the 4*s. Again, their answer is going to be to buff the 4*s so that they can eventually compete, but anything that can beat one of these Gods is going to be so powerful that the 3*s will no longer be able to compete with the 4*s.

The inevitable answer will be to have to buff the 3*s or create a chasm between 3 and 4*s that they are currently establishing for the 4* to 5*s. Then the 2*s can't compete, so they have to make them stronger or make the 2 to 3* transition impossible. OR worse yet, they force people to get lucky and pull a 5* that they can use undercovered to make the transition possible. That's not how the game is supposed to work.

In the end, after a lot of messing around with existing characters and making a lot of people unhappy, they are going to end up with a staggered system that more closely resembles what I'm offering without the need to destroy all of the balance in the game.

Make the 5*s. Make them tough to roster and tough to collect. Just make them tougher than 4*s, but not so tough that they will need to eventually rebalance the whole game just to react to the inevitable OP of the new class.

They have the power to design characters that don't require rebalancing. Instead they are holding out a God and asking us all to work and struggle and buy stuff to get this God. Then they are going to pull the rug out and rebalance the 4*s so that they can compete (or they risk driving away anyone who is trying to claim a legendary token who doesn't already have a maxed out 5*).

If you can't see how bad this character is going to be for the game, then you are being extremely short-sighted.

I do agree that making 5*s untouchable, and then promising to buff the 4*s up to be able to compete with them does seem a bit silly. If they just set the 5* level where it should be proportional to the 4*s to begin with, then they'd save so much work. Remember, once the 4*s are buffed, the 3*s will need a buff too, or they'll be made obsolete. Soon enough we're rebalancing the entire game.

I don't know exactly where the right balance is, but right now the max numbers for Surfer sound huge. He'd still be exciting with 55K HP. Even 50K I'd say. How is anyone ever supposed to kill this guy?

Buret0 · September 2015

aesthetocyst wrote:

I don't see 1,000 damage per AP or 30,000 health as being only marginally more powerful...

You misread that phrase. By calling for more of the same, you were asking for 5*s to continue the existing trend, i.e., 5*s to be marginally more powerful than 4*s who were marginally more powerful than 3*s .... etc. S step up, yes, but not overwhelming, and slow to get to parity.

To which I said, and will say again, "No thanks". More of the same would be a killer. Weeks to get a 3* up to speed? OK. Months to get a 4* up to speed? Getting old. Years to get a (implied) slightly more powerful 5* up to speed? Hell no.

Progression slows, happens, hard to avoid. But if it's no longer on a human time scale, the player base would be bored to sleep. Hopefully, I'd be one of the lucky ones would manage to stagger out while still retaining consciousness!

5*s announced are something new and exciting. A new power curve, yes. Slow to build but quick to use. Don't obsess over the end of the arc. You won't see it on 9/10. Or any time soon. The game will not break, nor the sky fall.

Yes, even if you were extremely lucky it would still take something like 80 to 100 legendary tokens to fully cover Surfer, assuming that you pulled covers at four times the normal odds to get the 13 you needed and got way better than expected odds (with enough people playing, someone will get lucky). The odds say you need to pull 20 tokens to get a single cover.

The top players will only be pulling in, what, 15 tokens a season? The whales will be pulling in maybe 30 a season? By that logic, it will take a very lucky top player 13 to 20 seasons to get covers... and as more 5*s get released it will only get harder to get the covers you are looking for.

Obviously that will be addressed as the devs will see new 5*s as not really making them any money. They will make it easier to get the specific 5* covers people are looking for or they will see backlash from those unlucky many who aren't getting what they wanted. Which makes early whales, and not the top players, as the only ones who will have well developed 5*s until the ways of getting them are addressed. Probably 5* vaults with specific covers that people will be able to whale.

At which point, the devs will have to do something to make 5*s earn revenue and so that other players can catch up. When that happens, the disaster scenario of 5*s being too far above 4*s will become a reality and the devs will make the adjustments that they have already contemplated.

At which point, the game balance will be broken and the devs will have to do a cascade of balance fixes to deal with the issue.

Or, they can address both problems right now by making a 5* not do 600 match damage and not give them 60K in health. They can make covering a single 5* take 3 to 4 seasons instead of 17 to 30. The revenue flow would be better and the game balance won't be broken. They can give an attainable 5* level to those looking to advance from 4* land without breaking the 3 to 4* transition and without needing to do a global rebalancing that has the effect of diminishing the 5* class.

Because let's face it. That's their plan. They roll out these 5*s and then they either nerf them or they effectively nerf them by buffing everything in the 4* class (and below as it will soon become necessary). You have a lot of pissed off customers who put in the work and the money to chase these Gods they have promised, only to find them becoming much less than once enough people have them.

Tell me, are you going to be more pissed off that they nerf them pre-release, or after you've done all the work of acquiring them? The whole roll out of this new class just doesn't seem to make sense for this game or for their long term economic strategy.

The idea that this isn't going to be a problem for a long time is short-sighted. The time to get this right is now, before it becomes a problem. They just finished spending the better part of the year regaining the trust of people whose OPed characters were nerfed. Do they really want to break that trust again?

Blahahah · September 2015

Personally, I'm absolutely fine with it taking months to properly cover a 5*.
Whales are gonna whale regardless, its not even worth the breath to mention them, however a new player doesn't just "get lucky" and pull a 5*.
Thats literally impossible. Unless he is buying up packs of 40 sets, then yeah but by that point he would have the covers to no longer be a "new player".

By making the time span so long initially, it lets them have time to fine-tune their findings. Instead of level 450 surfers flooding the market right off of the bat, you have a very very select few that have even one or two covers, and a handful at best with more. Small sample size, low numbers allowing for the current contenders to still exist somewhat, and you have a recipie that lets folks like Ice and D3 as a whole keep a close eye on things. I doubt they'd just "let the game die" like a lot of people are claiming. If 5*s do end up messing the natural order, you can probably rest assured either the bottom will be raised or the ceiling will be lowered.

Buret0 · September 2015

aesthetocyst wrote:

Trying to balance Buret0's posts here with Buret0's posts regarding who has Surfer in which a Buret0 states he bought 10 packs, lucked his way into multiple Surfer covers and has decided a 3 cover Surfer isn't much of a threat.

Because I hate myself?

I never at any time suggested that 3 cover Surfer was going to be a threat, I said maxed out 5*s are going to be game breaking and bad for this game.

I'd rather be the one on the demonstrating end saying, "I told you so," than be on the receiving end. Again, this isn't being hypocritical, this is not wanting to be the one without a silver surfer for the four months before the inevitable nerf.

***** tier throws off the * tier system

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