New Character - Toad (Mortimer Toynbee) 4*

It is a difficult balance. Do they keep nerfing until no one uses him like Sidewinder?

@TheXMan said:
It is a difficult balance. Do they keep nerfing until no one uses him like Sidewinder?

Yes?

If my choice is "Toad is a regular normal 4* who's usable when ascended and boosted (like Sidewinder is)" or "Toad is a busted combo enabler who pairs with about 12 of the best guys to go infinite turn0" I'll take #1 every single time. Lvl270 4* should not be completely warping the metagame around them at this point.

@entrailbucket said:

@ViralCore said:
Why are some people's suggestions for fixing 1-character-infinites changing the backbone game mechanics instead of just rebalancing the offending characters? 😂😂😂

I wish this community could just be, like, somewhat normal about nerfs.

If we want good characters, designers have to take chances and push the power level -- especially new designers! Sometimes that means they go too far, and they have to rein somebody in! That is ok, and it's perfectly normal. It happens in thousands of other competitive games.

The alternative is either a broken metagame where overpowered characters are the only ones that matter, because they're afraid to fix their mistakes, or a boring game where everybody is bad, because they're afraid to make mistakes at all.

Like yeah, imagine if they left Sidewinder how he was. Remember that month? What if they hadn't toned down Nova? Why do we want that?

What you say makes total sense when you are talking about newly released characters. Both Sidewinder and Nova and now Toad were recognized as problems immediately and toned down right away.

It makes far less sense and is a MUCH harder sell to tone down years old characters (MThor, Polaris, Shang, Rocket etc) because obviously players have much more invested in those characters and just as importantly, the game didn't die because of those characters so however OP they might be the game evolved around them just fine.

KGB

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ViralCore said:
Why are some people's suggestions for fixing 1-character-infinites changing the backbone game mechanics instead of just rebalancing the offending characters? 😂😂😂

I wish this community could just be, like, somewhat normal about nerfs.

If we want good characters, designers have to take chances and push the power level -- especially new designers! Sometimes that means they go too far, and they have to rein somebody in! That is ok, and it's perfectly normal. It happens in thousands of other competitive games.

The alternative is either a broken metagame where overpowered characters are the only ones that matter, because they're afraid to fix their mistakes, or a boring game where everybody is bad, because they're afraid to make mistakes at all.

Like yeah, imagine if they left Sidewinder how he was. Remember that month? What if they hadn't toned down Nova? Why do we want that?

What you say makes total sense when you are talking about newly released characters. Both Sidewinder and Nova and now Toad were recognized as problems immediately and toned down right away.

It makes far less sense and is a MUCH harder sell to tone down years old characters (MThor, Polaris, Shang, Rocket etc) because obviously players have much more invested in those characters and just as importantly, the game didn't die because of those characters so however OP they might be the game evolved around them just fine.

KGB

That's a very good point, and I do see that the reaction to quick nerfs has been more subdued in general (although people do seem to keep bringing up Sidewinder -- maybe they forgot how insane he was?).

@amigopdude22 said:

@ViralCore said:
I agree that they should take chances and be quick about rebalancing. My problem is that they pick and chose. 1-character-infinites should not exist.

Toad’s rebalance is noticeably different and that’s a good thing. Unfortunately they refuse to do the same about Hawkeye. His purple cost should be bumped up and the amount of free ap should be reduced. It’s basically the same rebalance as toad.

You really gotta let the HE thing go, he's fine. At max level he has less than 100k health, he's fairly easily managed. And if there weren't supports that gave 6-12 AP to start he would barely be in any conversations.

Exactly!

Who cares if some brand new 3* player can stomp your lvl672 team over and over again for 75 points a hit? You can "easily manage" to hit those retaliations for 5 points each!

@entrailbucket said:
Uh, did they nerf him again?

Edit: they did. He creates 2 charged tiles at most now. I'd have done it a different way...this feels pretty weak, but oh well. I did the whole PvP with him like this and he was still ok.

Yep. Looks like another stealth nerf.

Here's a thought: how about actually test the characters before throwing them out? I mean, shouldn't that be possible? And, if not, why not?

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:
Uh, did they nerf him again?

Edit: they did. He creates 2 charged tiles at most now. I'd have done it a different way...this feels pretty weak, but oh well. I did the whole PvP with him like this and he was still ok.

Yep. Looks like another stealth nerf.

Here's a thought: how about actually test the characters before throwing them out? I mean, shouldn't that be possible? And, if not, why not?

I'm always willing to cut them some slack on balance testing, because they don't play like we do. Plus IP2 are still really new to this.

All that said, I have no idea how Toad made it out in that state. That was egregious.

Hey, at least he got fixed pretty quick?

Totally get what you say about them not playing like we do. However, this has been going on for, what? 12 years? How about getting someone who plays like we do to actually test things before putting them in the wild?

I know, it's just a mobile game. But I guess it's a bit frustrating to continually have things like this happen. None of the teams play the way we do yet nobody else tries to play test it the way we can and figure out if something is in balance or not.

@amigopdude22 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@amigopdude22 said:

@ViralCore said:
I agree that they should take chances and be quick about rebalancing. My problem is that they pick and chose. 1-character-infinites should not exist.

Toad’s rebalance is noticeably different and that’s a good thing. Unfortunately they refuse to do the same about Hawkeye. His purple cost should be bumped up and the amount of free ap should be reduced. It’s basically the same rebalance as toad.

You really gotta let the HE thing go, he's fine. At max level he has less than 100k health, he's fairly easily managed. And if there weren't supports that gave 6-12 AP to start he would barely be in any conversations.

Exactly!

Who cares if some brand new 3* player can stomp your lvl672 team over and over again for 75 points a hit? You can "easily manage" to hit those retaliations for 5 points each!

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. Nerf everyone into oblivion, let chaos reign, antagonize people on the boards by taking things purposefully (hopefully) out of context. We get the schtick by now.

Explain how I took what you said out of context.

You are purposely disregarding and minimizing others' playstyle when you make comments like the one you made. If you don't want to play PvP competitively, good for you. Other players do and "stop complaining, he's easy to beat, who cares" is not a productive comment and does not address their concerns.

@entrailbucket said:

@amigopdude22 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@amigopdude22 said:

@ViralCore said:
I agree that they should take chances and be quick about rebalancing. My problem is that they pick and chose. 1-character-infinites should not exist.

Toad’s rebalance is noticeably different and that’s a good thing. Unfortunately they refuse to do the same about Hawkeye. His purple cost should be bumped up and the amount of free ap should be reduced. It’s basically the same rebalance as toad.

You really gotta let the HE thing go, he's fine. At max level he has less than 100k health, he's fairly easily managed. And if there weren't supports that gave 6-12 AP to start he would barely be in any conversations.

Exactly!

Who cares if some brand new 3* player can stomp your lvl672 team over and over again for 75 points a hit? You can "easily manage" to hit those retaliations for 5 points each!

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. Nerf everyone into oblivion, let chaos reign, antagonize people on the boards by taking things purposefully (hopefully) out of context. We get the schtick by now.

Explain how I took what you said out of context.

You are purposely disregarding and minimizing others' playstyle when you make comments like the one you made. If you don't want to play PvP competitively, good for you. Other players do and "stop complaining, he's easy to beat, who cares" is not a productive comment and does not address their concerns.

First, twisting "easily manage" to be in regards to the retaliation in a sarcastic fashion, an EB specialty!

Second, increasingly few of your comments are productive. The only thing you do is shut down concerns that don't revolve around "nerf everything so matches can go 10 minutes and no one invests in anything"

Third, what's not productive is the person who made a thread dedicated to nerfing HE shoehorning his complaint into a post about Toad, on the Toad page. He'll say it to anyone and everyone because the AI beat him one too many times with a HE he left out.

Fourth, the concerns were addressed in my post. As I said, if there weren't supports granting AP and letting players or AI fire powers immediately in PVP, HE would be a non-issue. The issue isn't HE, it's supports. But that doesn't fit your "ruin all the characters" gimmick.

@amigopdude22 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@amigopdude22 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@amigopdude22 said:

@ViralCore said:
I agree that they should take chances and be quick about rebalancing. My problem is that they pick and chose. 1-character-infinites should not exist.

Toad’s rebalance is noticeably different and that’s a good thing. Unfortunately they refuse to do the same about Hawkeye. His purple cost should be bumped up and the amount of free ap should be reduced. It’s basically the same rebalance as toad.

You really gotta let the HE thing go, he's fine. At max level he has less than 100k health, he's fairly easily managed. And if there weren't supports that gave 6-12 AP to start he would barely be in any conversations.

Exactly!

Who cares if some brand new 3* player can stomp your lvl672 team over and over again for 75 points a hit? You can "easily manage" to hit those retaliations for 5 points each!

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. Nerf everyone into oblivion, let chaos reign, antagonize people on the boards by taking things purposefully (hopefully) out of context. We get the schtick by now.

Explain how I took what you said out of context.

You are purposely disregarding and minimizing others' playstyle when you make comments like the one you made. If you don't want to play PvP competitively, good for you. Other players do and "stop complaining, he's easy to beat, who cares" is not a productive comment and does not address their concerns.

First, twisting "easily manage" to be in regards to the retaliation in a sarcastic fashion, an EB specialty!

Second, increasingly few of your comments are productive. The only thing you do is shut down concerns that don't revolve around "nerf everything so matches can go 10 minutes and no one invests in anything"

Third, what's not productive is the person who made a thread dedicated to nerfing HE shoehorning his complaint into a post about Toad, on the Toad page. He'll say it to anyone and everyone because the AI beat him one too many times with a HE he left out.

Fourth, the concerns were addressed in my post. As I said, if there weren't supports granting AP and letting players or AI fire powers immediately in PVP, HE would be a non-issue. The issue isn't HE, it's supports. But that doesn't fit your "ruin all the characters" gimmick.

That player is a 13-year vet, like me, with a million 550s, like me, who's a competitive player, like I am. Both of us have done more (and spent more) to support this game than you have, or ever will. Reducing his nuanced, informed argument to "he wiped to Hawkeye a few times" is exactly what you're accusing me of doing.

I don't care what you think of me or my comments. Toad got nerfed, and it's great. I "invested" in the cover pack for him (did you???) and I'm happy that I can use him to play MPQ now, instead of using him as an "I win" button to cheese fights.