Yet another overlapping PVE event...

13»

Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,220 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    I dunno why I am asking this because I agree let's let it go but...where did anybody go off topic? I get you want to shut this down but I can't agree that any posts have been array? This is important - we should trust our moderation is fair and consistent and I think you do an awesome job but we can all see which side you are on here and I feel your post had as much of a "snarky tone' as EB.

    If this costs me a ban or whatever so be it but I can't see anywhere that people have gone off topic or are being out of order.

    I thought @Scofie 's summary was 100% correct. I'm not sure how this has gotten where it's gotten, but the things he said there are the same things I've been saying all along -- nobody knows what a majority of players want. We each can only speak for ourselves, and potentially a few like-minded others from various channels.

    I don't think anyone has gone off topic here either, but I also don't think anyone is convincing anyone at this point.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,267 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    I dunno why I am asking this because I agree let's let it go but...where did anybody go off topic? I get you want to shut this down but I can't agree that any posts have been array? This is important - we should trust our moderation is fair and consistent and I think you do an awesome job but we can all see which side you are on here and I feel your post had as much of a "snarky tone' as EB.

    If this costs me a ban or whatever so be it but I can't see anywhere that people have gone off topic or are being out of order.

    I thought @Scofie 's summary was 100% correct. I'm not sure how this has gotten where it's gotten, but the things he said there are the same things I've been saying all along -- nobody knows what a majority of players want. We each can only speak for ourselves, and potentially a few like-minded others from various channels.

    I don't think anyone has gone off topic here either, but I also don't think anyone is convincing anyone at this point.

    I don't think a moderator should decide who is correct or not. That isn't their job. If no rules were broken then fine. I cannot see how this thread was off topic or how anybody was out of order. I love Scofie, he is awesome.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,267 Chairperson of the Boards

    And yes, I understand the above post means pain. I really hope not, I don't mean any offense or hurt. We can all disagree and still be friends. I love you all.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,220 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    I dunno why I am asking this because I agree let's let it go but...where did anybody go off topic? I get you want to shut this down but I can't agree that any posts have been array? This is important - we should trust our moderation is fair and consistent and I think you do an awesome job but we can all see which side you are on here and I feel your post had as much of a "snarky tone' as EB.

    If this costs me a ban or whatever so be it but I can't see anywhere that people have gone off topic or are being out of order.

    I thought @Scofie 's summary was 100% correct. I'm not sure how this has gotten where it's gotten, but the things he said there are the same things I've been saying all along -- nobody knows what a majority of players want. We each can only speak for ourselves, and potentially a few like-minded others from various channels.

    I don't think anyone has gone off topic here either, but I also don't think anyone is convincing anyone at this point.

    I don't think a moderator should decide who is correct or not. That isn't their job. If no rules were broken then fine. I cannot see how this thread was off topic or how anybody was out of order. I love Scofie, he is awesome.

    I just really did not read his post as agreeing with either side. Maybe look at it again?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,267 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    I dunno why I am asking this because I agree let's let it go but...where did anybody go off topic? I get you want to shut this down but I can't agree that any posts have been array? This is important - we should trust our moderation is fair and consistent and I think you do an awesome job but we can all see which side you are on here and I feel your post had as much of a "snarky tone' as EB.

    If this costs me a ban or whatever so be it but I can't see anywhere that people have gone off topic or are being out of order.

    I thought @Scofie 's summary was 100% correct. I'm not sure how this has gotten where it's gotten, but the things he said there are the same things I've been saying all along -- nobody knows what a majority of players want. We each can only speak for ourselves, and potentially a few like-minded others from various channels.

    I don't think anyone has gone off topic here either, but I also don't think anyone is convincing anyone at this point.

    I don't think a moderator should decide who is correct or not. That isn't their job. If no rules were broken then fine. I cannot see how this thread was off topic or how anybody was out of order. I love Scofie, he is awesome.

    I just really did not read his post as agreeing with either side. Maybe look at it again?

    Sure. I can do that.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,760 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    I dunno why I am asking this because I agree let's let it go but...where did anybody go off topic? I get you want to shut this down but I can't agree that any posts have been array? This is important - we should trust our moderation is fair and consistent and I think you do an awesome job but we can all see which side you are on here and I feel your post had as much of a "snarky tone' as EB.

    If this costs me a ban or whatever so be it but I can't see anywhere that people have gone off topic or are being out of order.

    Sorry, I worded the "future posts being on topic" bit badly. No posts have been off topic. I was trying to avoid the argument moving off on a tangent.

    On a personal level, I'm more aligned with eb's view - I think more stuff to do is better, but I also acknowledge that you can't play two games at once and so if you're a competitive player it's annoying having to choose. I also agree that nobody can know what the total player base want or don't want, but can only reflect the total view of the players they interact with. So I hoped I'd got the balance right.

    There was no snark intended at anyone - just an attempt at a glib summary to prevent escalation but probably written too hastily.

    I've banned a total of 3 accounts in my time as a mod - 2 of them swore at me via DMs after trolling the forum repeatedly, and the other was one of those people who created a duplicate account to troll the forums so I think you're safe. 🙂

  • Gymp28
    Gymp28 Posts: 351 Mover and Shaker

    @Scofie said:
    OK, I think we've gone enough round this particular buoy. If I may summarise:

    The game works around timers, but some players don't play that way.

    Nobody knows how many people play in any sort of way or what they like and as such cannot be produced as a statistically verified venn diagram.

    The game is built around rewards and some people want to earn more, others want to earn those that are expected through historic play probably because of routine.

    There are different amounts spent by different players. Nobody knows who or how much.

    Some people like buy clubs. Others do not.

    Everybody agrees being kind is a good thing. Nobody thinks the people on the other side of the argument is being kind. The only person skirting with being unreasonable in my view is @entrailbucket with his "widdle tantrum" post which had an unnecessarily snarky tone.

    Did I miss anything?

    Please keep future posts on topic and preferably building on the points and not repeating them.

    Whilst knowingly being in danger of going off topic, it surely can’t just be me that read ‘widdle tantrum’ and immediately had mental images of streaks of yellow flicking through the air, as if the buy-clubs were all thrashing around mid-‘process’?
    No? Just me? I’ll think seriously about re-starting the meds then.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,900 Chairperson of the Boards

    Since I have no problem admitting that I did a lot of buy clubs before the change of cover swapping, in no way was it a boycott. It was simply a "we're not doing buy clubs any more". They just stopped. It was not a concerted "nobody is spending money". The buy clubs themselves just stopped. All at once. If people wanted to keep spending money on things, nobody cared. It was definitely not a mass boycott. Some probably still are boycotting, some probably quit the game, but I know others (like myself) still play and buy things as good deals arise.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,220 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:
    Since I have no problem admitting that I did a lot of buy clubs before the change of cover swapping, in no way was it a boycott. It was simply a "we're not doing buy clubs any more". They just stopped. It was not a concerted "nobody is spending money". The buy clubs themselves just stopped. All at once. If people wanted to keep spending money on things, nobody cared. It was definitely not a mass boycott. Some probably still are boycotting, some probably quit the game, but I know others (like myself) still play and buy things as good deals arise.

    At the time a few players were posting manifestos and asking the devs to start "negotiations" to resolve the issue. I did see a few screenshots of players yelling at others for spending too.

    If that was just a few oddballs spouting off, and there was never anything organized, that explains why revenues dropped off but didn't bottom out. And it definitely explains why CS swaps weren't restored.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 7,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 9 February 2026 16:45

    Once the swaps ended, there were many good reasons to not start them again:

    1. It seems likely the plan/hope was that swaps would result in other players spending more on HP because unlike CS swaps, anyone can do it - presuming they seek out the rules and requirements (which is laid out in the Helpshift site).
    2. If you make a big change like this, you don't want to necessarily quickly walk it back if you hope for a gradual shift. Casual/less connected folks need to find the exchange system and decide to take advantage of it, something that you would probably expect to take a bit.
    3. Whatever they said about the amount of CS time spent on swaps, maybe there was a hope they could reduce the amount spent on CS. (Unity has probably somewhat ruined plans to reduce CS staff due to many snafus). The goal of any game like this is to find the absolute minimum staff in all areas to run it. Before swaps ended, money had fallen YoY in 2024 and was not likely to increase in a game this old and with a player base somewhat capped. This continues to be the case (labor being the main expense, you want the expense/revenue ratio to be as beneficial as possible).
    4. If you assume you would want things to run a bit before any changes, by the time you might think about swaps again, you would have disrupted the habits and 550 train enough that there was a high likelihood you would increase demands on CS without much revenue coming back. There is zero guarantee that if swaps had returned in, say, April 2025, that buy clubs would have been running again.

    Also I am assuming there is some bean counter type person making some decisions like this about the game, and who knows what each person decides. Could be a Digital Bro accountant trying to protect their job and absolutely refusing to increase any labor demand/cost which is riskier as a bet than trying other ways to find more money from players that aren't necessarily whales.

    After swaps ended, Unity beta began in earnest around May(?) and the devs did say that 6s were made possible by Unity. Or, maybe they just figured it would be better to sell 6s (don't at me, they can always make more offers) to try to increase revenue vs hoping for an indirect revenue bump which might come from re-allowing swaps for new 5s. Personally I don't necessarily think the approach is completely wrong but many parts have been implemented poorly.

    A desirable state for an old FTP game is most likely: Minimal labor need/demand and finding a way to make direct purchases by anyone the main source of revenue vs a somewhat obscure buy club avenue. (I know, anyone can join in etc.) If you want to be able to more directly control and influence spending etc you want it to be happening as much as possible in front of players' eyes via the game itself. Then you can tweak things, theoretically and try to measure and increase sales with a higher rate of feedback.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,220 Chairperson of the Boards

    Oh, I definitely think it's possible that a coordinated boycott among spenders could force them to change a policy.

    We'll never know for sure, though, because we've never seen one and probably never will. At the time I said that the boycott would last until they sold something worth buying, and, well, it appears I was wrong about that because nobody actually boycotted anyway.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,267 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, I definitely think it's possible that a coordinated boycott among spenders could force them to change a policy.

    We'll never know for sure, though, because we've never seen one and probably never will. At the time I said that the boycott would last until they sold something worth buying, and, well, it appears I was wrong about that because nobody actually boycotted anyway.

    We came pretty close a few times. The removal of CP in PvP and at least one of the shard issues saw co-ordinated action, especially with review bombing.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 8,220 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, I definitely think it's possible that a coordinated boycott among spenders could force them to change a policy.

    We'll never know for sure, though, because we've never seen one and probably never will. At the time I said that the boycott would last until they sold something worth buying, and, well, it appears I was wrong about that because nobody actually boycotted anyway.

    We came pretty close a few times. The removal of CP in PvP and at least one of the shard issues saw co-ordinated action, especially with review bombing.

    One thing that's always worked is not playing, at least when it comes to specific events. When something has a very low participation rate, they seem to pay attention to that and either adjust the event, run it less frequently, or never run it again.

    Have these overlapping PvEs had significantly lower participation? If they see players sitting these out, they'd probably be much more likely to change the schedule.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,267 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, I definitely think it's possible that a coordinated boycott among spenders could force them to change a policy.

    We'll never know for sure, though, because we've never seen one and probably never will. At the time I said that the boycott would last until they sold something worth buying, and, well, it appears I was wrong about that because nobody actually boycotted anyway.

    We came pretty close a few times. The removal of CP in PvP and at least one of the shard issues saw co-ordinated action, especially with review bombing.

    One thing that's always worked is not playing, at least when it comes to specific events. When something has a very low participation rate, they seem to pay attention to that and either adjust the event, run it less frequently, or never run it again.

    Have these overlapping PvEs had significantly lower participation? If they see players sitting these out, they'd probably be much more likely to change the schedule.

    One of the bizarre actions was the 5* players spreading out through all SCL to dominate leaderboards as a concerted threat to the Devs. I dunno exactly what they succeeded in doing apart from the Devs changing the rules on what SCL you could join in PvP. I suppose the idea was for a player backlash from the casual majority. Anyway it ended up with the compromise of PvP we have now.

Categories