Yet another overlapping PVE event...

I believe the new dev said before that they wanna move everything 1 day earlier, so this overlap is probably for that adjustment...

Luckily, the developers read these forums and have followed these sorts of debates so far -- and said so! I hope that in the future they will see that players have different opinions, and won't act immediately when someone tells them "this is bad for all players."

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LuxAurae said:

@bluewolf said:
Putting aside whether it really matters or not to overlap PVEs, the key thing to consider is this:

This game is built and survives on habit formation. Encouraging us to log in and expect the same things at the same time to operate in the same way is crucial.

You log in, you do your thing, you check the offers (maybe) etc. The people who are here after all this time are mostly people who like routines and seek out that structure in some way. Some may shrug and adapt but others will feel frustrated and annoyed and therefore might change their habits around game engagement.

Your (dear fellow forumite) routine being different, being able to accommodate double or triple or quadruple PVEs does not invalidate anyone else's routine. The game threw out the routine of swapping for latests and started losing hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue - PERMANENTLY, month after month, 1.5 years later - because whales decided, wisely, that spending the same amount of money wasn't worth it at all to them anymore without the ability to 550 the new character.

6s, so far, have at best (for one month) moved revenue up to a middling level prior to Dec 2024 so that's not solving any problem (yeah, I know. they don't bother to put offers up.).

There are extremely good reasons to move the events back a day but you're still disrupting patterns and habits that keep the game in business.

It may be that some rewards and offers are being tweaked upwards (the pass MIGHT be better than any standard one before now, I am not someone who has tracked that). But overall right now it seems like they're just changing things for purposes which benefit them, and disrupt many many players. And not really providing much benefit or compensation or acknowledgment (outside if you seek information about the game....outside the game).

The game is in a very risky spot right now, in my opinion, and minimizing disruption is the smartest move.

Casuals may not care at all and maybe everything goes ok, but the invested T100 players are probably a good 3000-5000 players. (SCL10 has 7 brackets where people at least somewhat try for T100, alone).

Thank you @bluewolf for this common sense and well-thought out post. I agree on this.

Routine is underestimated. People just want the game to work first and foremost.

Routine is actually severely overestimated. Who on here is underestimating routine?

Perhaps not underestimating it, but there is a tone to your posts that it doesn't matter. If it matters to someone in this game, it matters a lot. If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter at all. That's why there are polar reactions to overlapping PvEs.

I don't know the number of people on each camp but it doesn't really make much of a difference. If it bothers you and erodes your enjoyment of the game, then it matters.

The number of people in each camp is literally the entire debate!

If OP shows up and says "cmon guys please stop running overlapping PvE, I hate it" then none of this thread happens at all. Why can't anybody just say "I don't like this" instead of "this is bad for most players, and bad for the game?" Express your own opinions and let others express theirs.

Instead one side is saying "everyone else agrees with us," with zero evidence to support that.

Yes, but nobody can possibly know the number in each camp. It is easy to assume that the customer segment that just plays DDQ and the occasional PvE doesn't care. It may, in fact, be that they're time poor and would love to play all the PvEs but can't. Having 2 to miss out on in a day is worse for them in terms of lagging behind and might be more frustrating. The assertion that 900 people don't care is therefore just a set of assumptions. Same as for example, "everyone in my line group is annoyed, therefore everyone is annoyed" (which I know nobody is actually saying!).

Anyone can argue your assumptions are more sound than anyone else's, but it's all fundamentally subjective.

Then we agree 100%. Nobody can say "this is what the majority of players want," because it's impossible to know that.

So what are we arguing about?

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LuxAurae said:

@bluewolf said:
Putting aside whether it really matters or not to overlap PVEs, the key thing to consider is this:

This game is built and survives on habit formation. Encouraging us to log in and expect the same things at the same time to operate in the same way is crucial.

You log in, you do your thing, you check the offers (maybe) etc. The people who are here after all this time are mostly people who like routines and seek out that structure in some way. Some may shrug and adapt but others will feel frustrated and annoyed and therefore might change their habits around game engagement.

Your (dear fellow forumite) routine being different, being able to accommodate double or triple or quadruple PVEs does not invalidate anyone else's routine. The game threw out the routine of swapping for latests and started losing hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue - PERMANENTLY, month after month, 1.5 years later - because whales decided, wisely, that spending the same amount of money wasn't worth it at all to them anymore without the ability to 550 the new character.

6s, so far, have at best (for one month) moved revenue up to a middling level prior to Dec 2024 so that's not solving any problem (yeah, I know. they don't bother to put offers up.).

There are extremely good reasons to move the events back a day but you're still disrupting patterns and habits that keep the game in business.

It may be that some rewards and offers are being tweaked upwards (the pass MIGHT be better than any standard one before now, I am not someone who has tracked that). But overall right now it seems like they're just changing things for purposes which benefit them, and disrupt many many players. And not really providing much benefit or compensation or acknowledgment (outside if you seek information about the game....outside the game).

The game is in a very risky spot right now, in my opinion, and minimizing disruption is the smartest move.

Casuals may not care at all and maybe everything goes ok, but the invested T100 players are probably a good 3000-5000 players. (SCL10 has 7 brackets where people at least somewhat try for T100, alone).

Thank you @bluewolf for this common sense and well-thought out post. I agree on this.

Routine is underestimated. People just want the game to work first and foremost.

Routine is actually severely overestimated. Who on here is underestimating routine?

Perhaps not underestimating it, but there is a tone to your posts that it doesn't matter. If it matters to someone in this game, it matters a lot. If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter at all. That's why there are polar reactions to overlapping PvEs.

I don't know the number of people on each camp but it doesn't really make much of a difference. If it bothers you and erodes your enjoyment of the game, then it matters.

The number of people in each camp is literally the entire debate!

If OP shows up and says "cmon guys please stop running overlapping PvE, I hate it" then none of this thread happens at all. Why can't anybody just say "I don't like this" instead of "this is bad for most players, and bad for the game?" Express your own opinions and let others express theirs.

Instead one side is saying "everyone else agrees with us," with zero evidence to support that.

Yes, but nobody can possibly know the number in each camp. It is easy to assume that the customer segment that just plays DDQ and the occasional PvE doesn't care. It may, in fact, be that they're time poor and would love to play all the PvEs but can't. Having 2 to miss out on in a day is worse for them in terms of lagging behind and might be more frustrating. The assertion that 900 people don't care is therefore just a set of assumptions. Same as for example, "everyone in my line group is annoyed, therefore everyone is annoyed" (which I know nobody is actually saying!).

Anyone can argue your assumptions are more sound than anyone else's, but it's all fundamentally subjective.

Then we agree 100%. Nobody can say "this is what the majority of players want," because it's impossible to know that.

So what are we arguing about?

I didn't think we were... 🤣.

I'm just saying it's an entirely fair assumption to make that if the hardcore T100 players all think it's bad, that might be 70% of the play time of the game because the other 90% of players don't play much. They might claim to be the majority. You might use a different metric. That's all fine and the debate has been about which view is representative of the whole player base. Just as one cannot say "most players hate it" one cannot say "most players don't hate it".

That's what I've been saying this whole time!