PVP Meta Counter

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:
Now that Leapfrog and (especially) Thanos Copter are gone, Sam/Juggernaut isn't even very good anymore. Your best bet is to bring free AP supports and oneshot Sam with some power, then you can bring down Juggernaut on your own schedule while he flops around trying to hurt you.

They're also completely, hilariously owned by Nova/Hulk -- just have Nova lift off and they'll kill Hulk over and over (one time they hit a cascade and killed mine like 20 times in a row), to the point where Hulk's match damage will actually hurt Juggernaut.

Ummmm. Sam/Jugg still are good. No question about that. Are they what they were? No. But saying that "Sam/Juggernaut isn't even good any more" is just wrong. Unless you are playing an alternate MPQ that I am not aware of its existence.

Yeah, I suppose this depends on where you're situated roster-wise. I am probably playing a somewhat different MPQ than some others, but I think I can probably speak for the top few % of PvP players (? Where's @Phumade ?).

From my perspective, that team losing Leapfrog and Copter makes them like 1000% easier to deal with. Leapfrog gave them a ton of survivability, and Copter gave them explosiveness. They used to beat my defensive teams pretty frequently, and sometimes I'd even struggle with them on offense and eat a ton of damage. None of that is happening anymore. I haven't lost a PvP match to them since the support bans, on offense or defense.

For you it'll really depend on how much damage you can put out off AP supports before they can get up and running, and that will likely vary week to week depending on what you've got. If you've got 672 1* and high level 2* though, and good coverage on the AP supports, you are going to be in pretty fantastic shape (at least until everyone gets Frankie up and running). That's where I'd focus for the near term.

@Phumade said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:
Now that Leapfrog and (especially) Thanos Copter are gone, Sam/Juggernaut isn't even very good anymore. Your best bet is to bring free AP supports and oneshot Sam with some power, then you can bring down Juggernaut on your own schedule while he flops around trying to hurt you.

They're also completely, hilariously owned by Nova/Hulk -- just have Nova lift off and they'll kill Hulk over and over (one time they hit a cascade and killed mine like 20 times in a row), to the point where Hulk's match damage will actually hurt Juggernaut.

Ummmm. Sam/Jugg still are good. No question about that. Are they what they were? No. But saying that "Sam/Juggernaut isn't even good any more" is just wrong. Unless you are playing an alternate MPQ that I am not aware of its existence.

Yeah, I suppose this depends on where you're situated roster-wise. I am probably playing a somewhat different MPQ than some others, but I think I can probably speak for the top few % of PvP players (? Where's @Phumade ?).

From my perspective, that team losing Leapfrog and Copter makes them like 1000% easier to deal with. Leapfrog gave them a ton of survivability, and Copter gave them explosiveness. They used to beat my defensive teams pretty frequently, and sometimes I'd even struggle with them on offense and eat a ton of damage. None of that is happening anymore. I haven't lost a PvP match to them since the support bans, on offense or defense.

For you it'll really depend on how much damage you can put out off AP supports before they can get up and running, and that will likely vary week to week depending on what you've got. If you've got 672 1* and high level 2* though, and good coverage on the AP supports, you are going to be in pretty fantastic shape (at least until everyone gets Frankie up and running). That's where I'd focus for the near term.

Time will tell.

Always the case. You'd think the metagame would be easier to predict after 11 years of this, but it continues to surprise me. The in between periods are always the most fun for me though, and I think we are in an in between period right now.

(I ran 672 Spidey with 672 3* Luke Cage, who is completely insane.)

One of my next priorities is to get Coulson to 550.

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Aaaaaaaaaalrighty, it's been a while, and there are some meta updates for sure.

Added to Page 1:

• Hawkeye1 as a priority target
• Moonstone2 as a next priority target
• Frankie5 as a next priority target, but short list partner dependent
• Sammernaut as get when you can, as a combo, not really separately
• Notes for Chasm being neutered temporarily by Refresh Cart
• Frankie team comps WIP (please add your favorite Frankie counters here)
• Pick 3 turn 1 double stun in the almost can't lose section:
  Darkveil4 w/ Karkoa, DareDevil4 w/ Refresh Cart, Wong5 w/ Kamar-Taj (not recommended for Frankie or current Cart): https://youtube.com/shorts/Gz7uJYC_YbI?si=zF7jx7QyyVU_hXVF .
  Yes, there are maaaany you can swap out for similar results, but this one has excellent results and decent speed once you get the patterns down. No random, no AP boosts always healthy.

More to come soon. I believe I have been floating in the top of the pick 3 meta (most have all 550's)? I'm about 200 wins in and often sitting in top 10. Up here, I ONLY EVER see (so, I'll continue looking for teams that beat these):
1. Baku, Namor, Chasm
2. Frankie, May, Chasm (maybe MThor)
3. Sam, Juggy, Chasm

This is what I see in sim.

I beat them (all of them, all the time, and beat them consistently) with 4* Carol/Coulson/5* Riri (all 550).

It's really fast too. I put Battleworld on Carol, Refreshment Cart on Coulson, and +6 green on Riri. Refreshment Cart is still broken so it nerfs Chasm. In general the enemy never gets a move (unless they have Refreshment Cart too, but that seems to be rare).

Are you saying that the enemy refreshment cart stops you from stunning them? In my experience the bug only works on offense.

If I go into a match with refreshment cart I prevent their Chasm from stunning my team, but they can't stop my chasm from stunning them if they have the cart equipped.

Oh I don't know, did they change something? It worked that way pretty recently for me, but I only do sim for like an hour a month.

@WhiteBomber said:
I don't know if anything was changed, but it definitely works on both sides (even as of today):

Rank3

• Enemy team w/ Cart will have your stun/airborne reduced by 2 turns.
• Your team w/ Cart will have enemy stun/airborne reduced by 2 turns.
• Your team w/ Cart will reduce your own team trying to go airborne. So, your Frankie will go airborne for only 1 turn OR it will completely stop you from being able to use Northstar black, Ikarus pink etc.

I think the confusion might be that it only does 2 turns? So, it will completely block Chasm's 1 turn, but if you throw a stun that is more than 2 turns, it will still land, but reduce it by 2, IE: Moonstone4 will still stun 2 people for 1 turn after the 2 are subtracted.

The series of pics above show the sequence of events i just played, and how it has worked for me every SIM season since cart support has been bugged.

They have Cart equipped, I have Cart equipped, my cart prevents any stun, they all still get the 1 turn chasm stun.

Not sure if it behaves differently in the regular pvp since I never see anyone running it and don't run it myself.

@WhiteBomber said:
Did you drop your crit here and it ended the match!?

Lol, yes that is exactly what I did and the game was over.

@WhiteBomber said:
Aaaaaaaaaalrighty, it's been a while, and there are some meta updates for sure.

Added to Page 1:

• Hawkeye1 as a priority target
• Moonstone2 as a next priority target
• Frankie5 as a next priority target, but short list partner dependent
• Sammernaut as get when you can, as a combo, not really separately
• Notes for Chasm being neutered temporarily by Refresh Cart
• Frankie team comps WIP (please add your favorite Frankie counters here)
• Pick 3 turn 1 double stun in the almost can't lose section:
  Darkveil4 w/ Karkoa, DareDevil4 w/ Refresh Cart, Wong5 w/ Kamar-Taj (not recommended for Frankie or current Cart): https://youtube.com/shorts/Gz7uJYC_YbI?si=zF7jx7QyyVU_hXVF .
  Yes, there are maaaany you can swap out for similar results, but this one has excellent results and decent speed once you get the patterns down. No random, no AP boosts always healthy.

More to come soon. I believe I have been floating in the top of the pick 3 meta (most have all 550's)? I'm about 200 wins in and often sitting in top 10. Up here, I ONLY EVER see (so, I'll continue looking for teams that beat these):
1. Baku, Namor, Chasm
2. Frankie, May, Chasm (maybe MThor)
3. Sam, Juggy, Chasm

You're putting a lot of work into updating the list and making sense of the suggestions of others in one location while providing videos for proof of concept.

It's appreciated and a lot of players could really benefit from your efforts. It's appreciated.

@Blackstone said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Aaaaaaaaaalrighty, it's been a while, and there are some meta updates for sure.

Added to Page 1:

• Hawkeye1 as a priority target
• Moonstone2 as a next priority target
• Frankie5 as a next priority target, but short list partner dependent
• Sammernaut as get when you can, as a combo, not really separately
• Notes for Chasm being neutered temporarily by Refresh Cart
• Frankie team comps WIP (please add your favorite Frankie counters here)
• Pick 3 turn 1 double stun in the almost can't lose section:
  Darkveil4 w/ Karkoa, DareDevil4 w/ Refresh Cart, Wong5 w/ Kamar-Taj (not recommended for Frankie or current Cart): https://youtube.com/shorts/Gz7uJYC_YbI?si=zF7jx7QyyVU_hXVF .
  Yes, there are maaaany you can swap out for similar results, but this one has excellent results and decent speed once you get the patterns down. No random, no AP boosts always healthy.

More to come soon. I believe I have been floating in the top of the pick 3 meta (most have all 550's)? I'm about 200 wins in and often sitting in top 10. Up here, I ONLY EVER see (so, I'll continue looking for teams that beat these):
1. Baku, Namor, Chasm
2. Frankie, May, Chasm (maybe MThor)
3. Sam, Juggy, Chasm

This is what I see in sim.

I beat them (all of them, all the time, and beat them consistently) with 4* Carol/Coulson/5* Riri (all 550).

It's really fast too. I put Battleworld on Carol, Refreshment Cart on Coulson, and +6 green on Riri. Refreshment Cart is still broken so it nerfs Chasm. In general the enemy never gets a move (unless they have Refreshment Cart too, but that seems to be rare).

I just want to give you props for this team.
I use each of the characters for various quest related fulfillment, but I hadn't put them together like this.

They work well enough I was asking myself "how have I not tried this before?"

Anyway, thanks for the tip.

Carol/Coulson is the engine -- it's crazy powerful as long as you have one strike tile out. It works with any cheap ability, so lots of characters can fit into the third slot!

Low Level AI will be more consistent on Carol than Battleworld, but I use Carol's yellow to reset the Riri countdown, and AI messes that up.