How do you solve a problem like Seth?

Gymp28
Gymp28 Posts: 139 Tile Toppler
in MPQ General Discussion

So I’ve thought a lot about what they could do to nerf sidewinder into an appropriate place in the game…
I believe the design intention was for him to bump the match damage of tiers below 5 star so that they could better punch up, so (whilst mechanically probably not that simple to implement) the best option would probably be for his match damage boost to be set to ZERO for his 5 star allies, and only be effective for lower tier characters.
Certain supports have varying effects depending on the rarity of the character they are equipped to, so it shouldn’t be beyond the capabilities of the engine (At least not the new one…)

As much as it’s nice to quickly snowplough my way through everything with match damage and put my phone back in my pocket after 15 minutes, I actually used to enjoy playing the game, and that’s just not something that feels good any more whilst One Hit Knock Out (OHKO)ing remains an option…
Come on BCS, fix this broken mess before you chase away large chunks of your playerbase 🙏

Any further thoughts welcome.

Comments

  • concillado
    concillado Posts: 118 Tile Toppler

    In 5* territory Sidewinder is not so relevant as a "glas cannon", because he is easily slain with an aoe-hitter like JuggFear or the like. Nerfing the ability to not work with 5* team mates doesnt solve the issue.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,586 Chairperson of the Boards

    This does not really solve the issue at hand. As an aside, if you don't like playing with him, you definitely don't have to do so. I don't think he is the "broken mess" you seem to think he is and would prefer they just keep him as is.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,028 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think someone else has suggested to make the 5* match dmg boost less than the other tiers', which may or may not be something the code could accommodate. Also if players have chased him to use with their low covered 5s and punch up that would frustrate them. Heck, a baby champ 5 can use Sidewinder to punch up and given the vast gap between vets who have 550d everyone (or at least everyone important, let's say 30 or more) and anyone who hasn't 550d anyone yet, giving punch up tools is very important in this extremely diluted game.

    I'd also point out that Sidewinder is turning up to 11 what was already at a 10, really. Maybe he does more as a single partner but 3-4 May also does a lot. Not to mention Golden Oldie who had already trivialized PVE for anyone who 550d her or had her very high. In pick 2, 3-4 May is often your best choice with a decent boosted 5.

    I am a bit ambivalent about whether he matters in the long run of this game which I am not that convinced is that long. Basically he does set a bar past which you can't move in terms of "easy win" - or at minimum he did set an extremely high bar at release, they moved it down a bit while keeping it above former status quo, and now if they move the bar back a bit lower or just push it down to where the game already was then you see with him the remaining design space, and if the game goes long enough they eventually go back to that bar or never move the meta.

    I might argue that I'd rather see some of the AOE annoyances like OR or 4-5 Jugg nerfed than Sidewinder but I don't think anyone would be happy with that. But this week I saw a lot of high level 4-5 Jugg in pvp because the boost list is absolutely abysmal (aka characters that are weak and/or need fairly large amounts of AP with lousy passives). 5 Sam helps make 4-5 Jugg and AOE dmg more effective....yay? I am seeing this team a lot now. Possibly as a Side/boosted 5 counter.

    I suppose at the end of the day the question becomes "what's too much?" vs "why bother?" for Seth and other characters. Nerfing him will slightly change the game which is/was already very very close to the "make a match and win" zone and once you get far enough in everything is trivial with or without him.

    PS I have been using Seth with my 1-5 Venom a lot this week and would be very annoyed if they nerf him further.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,586 Chairperson of the Boards

    They also do have a pseudo nerf on him when ascended. His max damage % increase goes from 1500 to 880. Still not shabby but there is a definite tradeoff to his increased health.

    Personally, I ascended sidewinder for eventual better use in PVP with his health and have kept a non ascended champed sidewinder for PVE use.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,751 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 2 April 2025, 12:42

    Why can't they just reduce the boost proportionate to what other characters give rather than leave him as such an outlier?

    Regardless they have left it too long now and players are going to be mad if he gets hit.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    edited 2 April 2025, 14:38

    5 star juggernaut
    That's all, carry on
    Also works for that annoying leapfrog support which pleases me greatly.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    I'm pretty sure they did say that the initial nerf was just to tone him down a bit while he was boosted but that they were still looking at nerfing him further. So unless they changed their minds about him, he should be getting nerfed more.

  • Gymp28
    Gymp28 Posts: 139 Tile Toppler

    @LavaManLee said:
    This does not really solve the issue at hand. As an aside, if you don't like playing with him, you definitely don't have to do so. I don't think he is the "broken mess" you seem to think he is and would prefer they just keep him as is.

    I think the problem (as I see it) is that I really like experimenting with unusual team synergies, but he’s far too convenient not to be used. Maybe it’s that I’ve been playing this game for over 10 years, but I value my time back more than playing with a ‘less optimal’ team.
    I mostly play PvE, so PvP is not what my post was centred around. From that point of view he’s slightly better balanced because those counters that have been mentioned exist.
    Perhaps my main gripe is that PVE has become too trivial. Maybe if they started running Heroic PvEs where you have to think about your team comp a bit more I’d be more engaged.
    And you’re absolutely right that I could choose not to use him. It just grates against my need to make things efficient.

    Maybe most people like steamrolling PvE without thinking, and I’m finally ‘burned out’ 🤷‍♂️

    Limbus company has grabbed my attention as a mobile game worth putting time into, and at least now that I can steamroll PVE in as little time as possible I can actually fit that into my schedule.
    So maybe I don’t think sidewinder should be nerfed? 🤨
    And maybe I’m having some sort of breakdown… send help 🫠

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,425 Chairperson of the Boards

    If you're not competing for top placement in PvE, then you can use whatever you want. I suppose that's a bit of a problem (really, I should be able to compete using my choice of a few different strategies that are roughly equal), but I don't think they're concerned about that.

    If it's about "valuing your time" then I'm not sure I get that. Using some suboptimal team that wins fights in 3 or 4 turns, vs a turn0 autowin machine, is going to add what, like 10 or 15 minutes to your timings? If that's a dealbreaker then I don't know why you're still playing at all.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,485 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 2 April 2025, 17:29

    @entrailbucket said:
    If it's about "valuing your time" then I'm not sure I get that. Using some suboptimal team that wins fights in 3 or 4 turns, vs a turn0 autowin machine, is going to add what, like 10 or 15 minutes to your timings? If that's a dealbreaker then I don't know why you're still playing at all.

    Even 3 or 4 turns is still a fairly meta team. If you want to experiment and use really non-meta teams it's not 3-4 moves unless you have 550s and are matching them to death. Its more like 10-15 and you are looking at clear times in CL10 of 30-45 minutes vs 10-15. 30 minutes a day (more like 45-60 total when you add in the final clears) adds up. Sidewinder saves me easily 30-40 a day which is huge.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,425 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If it's about "valuing your time" then I'm not sure I get that. Using some suboptimal team that wins fights in 3 or 4 turns, vs a turn0 autowin machine, is going to add what, like 10 or 15 minutes to your timings? If that's a dealbreaker then I don't know why you're still playing at all.

    Even 3 or 4 turns is still a fairly meta team. If you want to experiment and use really non-meta teams it's not 3-4 moves unless you have 550s and are matching them to death. Its more like 10-15 and you are looking at clear times in CL10 of 30-45 minutes vs 10-15. 30 minutes a day (more like 45-60 total when you add in the final clears) adds up. Sidewinder saves me easily 30-40 a day which is huge.

    KGB

    30-45 minutes for a clear? Are you matching them to death with 2*?

    I use the boosted characters every event and look for some kind of synergy. I don't think that's too difficult for most players here to achieve (I know your roster is...uhh... different).

    There's a really wide range between "literally the fastest possible team that wins everything in one move or less" and "3 unboosted unlevelled characters with no synergy."

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,485 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 2 April 2025, 19:30

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If it's about "valuing your time" then I'm not sure I get that. Using some suboptimal team that wins fights in 3 or 4 turns, vs a turn0 autowin machine, is going to add what, like 10 or 15 minutes to your timings? If that's a dealbreaker then I don't know why you're still playing at all.

    Even 3 or 4 turns is still a fairly meta team. If you want to experiment and use really non-meta teams it's not 3-4 moves unless you have 550s and are matching them to death. Its more like 10-15 and you are looking at clear times in CL10 of 30-45 minutes vs 10-15. 30 minutes a day (more like 45-60 total when you add in the final clears) adds up. Sidewinder saves me easily 30-40 a day which is huge.

    KGB

    30-45 minutes for a clear? Are you matching them to death with 2*?

    I use the boosted characters every event and look for some kind of synergy. I don't think that's too difficult for most players here to achieve (I know your roster is...uhh... different).

    There's a really wide range between "literally the fastest possible team that wins everything in one move or less" and "3 unboosted unlevelled characters with no synergy."

    BrB/Polaris (Grocket when I pick 3) + heal supports.

    I don't have much else that can handle that can handle the challenge node or 5 star node etc. Obviously some PvEs are much easier than others but some I can only manage with teams like that because of their massive health + damage.

    Sidewinder/Chasm has been a god send, esp with leapfrog and other supports.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,425 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If it's about "valuing your time" then I'm not sure I get that. Using some suboptimal team that wins fights in 3 or 4 turns, vs a turn0 autowin machine, is going to add what, like 10 or 15 minutes to your timings? If that's a dealbreaker then I don't know why you're still playing at all.

    Even 3 or 4 turns is still a fairly meta team. If you want to experiment and use really non-meta teams it's not 3-4 moves unless you have 550s and are matching them to death. Its more like 10-15 and you are looking at clear times in CL10 of 30-45 minutes vs 10-15. 30 minutes a day (more like 45-60 total when you add in the final clears) adds up. Sidewinder saves me easily 30-40 a day which is huge.

    KGB

    30-45 minutes for a clear? Are you matching them to death with 2*?

    I use the boosted characters every event and look for some kind of synergy. I don't think that's too difficult for most players here to achieve (I know your roster is...uhh... different).

    There's a really wide range between "literally the fastest possible team that wins everything in one move or less" and "3 unboosted unlevelled characters with no synergy."

    BrB/Polaris (Grocket when I pick 3) + heal supports.

    I don't have much else that can handle that can handle the challenge node or 5 star node etc. Obviously some PvEs are much easier than others but some I can only manage with teams like that because of their massive health + damage.

    Sidewinder/Chasm has been a god send, esp with leapfrog and other supports.

    KGB

    You could just level up your guys...

  • MCPenance
    MCPenance Posts: 9 Just Dropped In

    Don't worry Guys, this is now a non-issue!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,751 Chairperson of the Boards

    @MCPenance said:
    Don't worry Guys, this is now a non-issue!

    Not for KGB. he still needs to champ his 5's!

  • skittledaddy
    skittledaddy Posts: 1,009 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @MCPenance said:
    Don't worry Guys, this is now a non-issue!

    Not for KGB. he still needs to champ his 5's!

    No, he doesn't. Soft-cappers for life!!

    Besides, Kang-Cheese still exists for our CN needs.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,751 Chairperson of the Boards

    @skittledaddy said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @MCPenance said:
    Don't worry Guys, this is now a non-issue!

    Not for KGB. he still needs to champ his 5's!

    No, he doesn't. Soft-cappers for life!!

    Besides, Kang-Cheese still exists for our CN needs.

    It exists but you only need to lose one of the components to fail. That said enjoy the soft-cap!

  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 1,003 Chairperson of the Boards

    I can somewhat understand lowering the % damage boost. 1500% was a bit too much, I admit.
    But the second nerf of draining TU's really makes this a massive nerf. In order to get some benefit you need to constantly chase TU's, just like Okoye.

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