Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley) 5*

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
I love the idea and know Coulson is amazing, but that team will get seriously injured (if they win at all) against meta, or Kang, SWitch, Immortals, Agatha3/BRB etc.?

In this scenario you would also need to start with 5 red and 6 blue.

Seriously asking, definitely not trying to put down:
What kind of damage would that do to a max health Juggs or Baku? It should be close to a fixed number (barring cascades) since the countdowns are the same every match.

Theoretically it'd kill anything, but there are faster ways to do it. You do need to stay alive for one turn.

Start with 5 red or blue somehow (probably requires boosts)
Turn 0 cast Hawkeye red or blue, get 5 Coulson CDs
Turn 1 Coulson CDs resolve, Hawkeye generates 12 Blue and 8 red.

Expedite until everyone is dead. Every time you expedite you get 5 more Coulson CDs, which the next Expedite resolves 4 of, giving you 15 Blue and 10 red from Hawkeye.

It's actually super busted! That power shouldn't be blue (it should be yellow), but I guess nobody cares.

Shouldn't this work with Kang, and then you can use surplus blue to away some opponents?

Seems there might be a bug. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/91677/kangs-cosmic-tactician-3-or-5-passive-not-working-with-coulson-hobgoblin#latest

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
I love the idea and know Coulson is amazing, but that team will get seriously injured (if they win at all) against meta, or Kang, SWitch, Immortals, Agatha3/BRB etc.?

In this scenario you would also need to start with 5 red and 6 blue.

Seriously asking, definitely not trying to put down:
What kind of damage would that do to a max health Juggs or Baku? It should be close to a fixed number (barring cascades) since the countdowns are the same every match.

Theoretically it'd kill anything, but there are faster ways to do it. You do need to stay alive for one turn.

Start with 5 red or blue somehow (probably requires boosts)
Turn 0 cast Hawkeye red or blue, get 5 Coulson CDs
Turn 1 Coulson CDs resolve, Hawkeye generates 12 Blue and 8 red.

Expedite until everyone is dead. Every time you expedite you get 5 more Coulson CDs, which the next Expedite resolves 4 of, giving you 15 Blue and 10 red from Hawkeye.

It's actually super busted! That power shouldn't be blue (it should be yellow), but I guess nobody cares.

Shouldn't this work with Kang, and then you can use surplus blue to away some opponents?

Seems there might be a bug. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/91677/kangs-cosmic-tactician-3-or-5-passive-not-working-with-coulson-hobgoblin#latest

It should, yeah. I guess it's not working now, dunno why!

@entrailbucket said:

@bluewolf said:
IDK if it reflect Hobgoblin being decent but I took him with 3 covers into some PVP and PVE rounds to win the 20 matches (and use his powers) before his PVP. Maybe his partners picked up the slack but he contributed some.

I had some fun with him, choosing your tile and bomb placement is decently good. I didn't even use Coulson as mine isn't quite ascended. Getting a bunch of stuns out is nice.

I am a pretty big fan of the character in a lot of ways since I was getting seriously into comics around the time he was being used a lot in Spidey books. So maybe that makes a difference.

Anyway, I like him ok. I think I like using him more than last year's character we chose (Shaw).

There are always two discussions to have when you're evaluating a character, and we have to be really clear about which version of it we're having.

Conversation #1 is about a character's place in the current metagame, and their performance with and against the top characters. Are they fast enough? Are they particularly weak against the best characters? Do they synergize with one or more of them? For some of us these questions are the only ones that matter, and for some of us they might matter a little or not at all.

Conversation #2 is about whether the character is fun to use, can combo/synergize with lesser-used characters, and is good in a neutral metagame.

Increasingly, the conversation #1 answers are pretty dire! The top guys are so, so strong that someone has to do something insane to get there. But that doesn't mean the character has no redeeming qualities at all, or is totally useless.

I agree, and a part of conversation #2 is "is this character decent enough to use when boosted, particularly if they synergize with good characters you're also likely to use." Roderick seems to be not quite there IMHO, his synergy is so board-dependant you probably won't use him unless one of the better tier board-dependant toons are boosted at the same time as him, and that's a pretty unlikely scenario. Still, I agree, he's not awful, the fact that you can choose both the color and placement of his CDs is pretty neat. And as you're implying, we shouldn't just be having conversation #1 as that's something that's going to be harder and harder to achieve.

Another conversation to have, actually, is "Does this character have a neat aspect that may somehow, in the future, synergize enough with someone new that they'll immediately make them useful (i.e. what Chasm did to iHulk.) Again, we're still at "probably not," I don't see anything in Hobgoblin's kit that screams "future meta."

@Painmonger said:

I don't get turn 0. It sounds like on turn 1 you're casting a power and getting coulson's CD, and then next turn, turn 2, they resolve?

I've had similar thoughts for that phrasing.

One of my favorite tabletop card games is Sentinels of the Multiverse & after game setup the players get a turn that's composed of phases. All of those phases together make up your turn, even if something allows you to repeat a phase. That's always been a lot clearer to me.

MPQ has a similar structure, it's just Start of Turn, Power phase, Move Phase, and End of Turn. It's all just 1 turn, though. It would be asking a lot for the whole forum to adopt a whole new terminology, though!

I think that terminology and breakdown is excellent and could be really beneficial for in-depth explanations. I would then say that "turn 0 win" is shorthand for "win occurs during the turn 1 Power Phase". Of course, we might eventually need to coin "turn -1 win" for when we start winning during turn 1's Start of Turn Phase.

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@Godzillafan67 said:

@Painmonger said:

I don't get turn 0. It sounds like on turn 1 you're casting a power and getting coulson's CD, and then next turn, turn 2, they resolve?

I've had similar thoughts for that phrasing.

One of my favorite tabletop card games is Sentinels of the Multiverse & after game setup the players get a turn that's composed of phases. All of those phases together make up your turn, even if something allows you to repeat a phase. That's always been a lot clearer to me.

MPQ has a similar structure, it's just Start of Turn, Power phase, Move Phase, and End of Turn. It's all just 1 turn, though. It would be asking a lot for the whole forum to adopt a whole new terminology, though!

I think that terminology and breakdown is excellent and could be really beneficial for in-depth explanations. I would then say that "turn 0 win" is shorthand for "win occurs during the turn 1 Power Phase". Of course, we might eventually need to coin "turn -1 win" for when we start winning during turn 1's Start of Turn Phase.

So Devpool/Grocket/Thanos is a turn -1 win, or a turn 0 win?

If that works the way I think it's a turn 0 win. Turn Zero is the start of battle/setup stage before you've had a chance to do anything at all. As soon as you can use AP or match anything it's turn 1.

...and by that definition, things like the M'baku Namor team are not turn 0 wins, because they cast a power that moves the board, which is probably why the super fast PvE guys aren't using them.

@entrailbucket said:
And it's also also worth noting that all this terminology is relatively new, and maybe not fully baked, because the idea that you can win a fight without even moving the board is also relatively new.

Like I remember the Sentry Bomb being super fast (and it was!) but even that required you to full boost and then move the board a couple of times, and, like...play MPQ, however briefly. Also they nerfed that into the ground basically as soon as they found out we were doing it, because they felt that it wasn't actually playing MPQ.

Sentryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! The WORST.

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@entrailbucket said:

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@Godzillafan67 said:

@Painmonger said:

I don't get turn 0. It sounds like on turn 1 you're casting a power and getting coulson's CD, and then next turn, turn 2, they resolve?

I've had similar thoughts for that phrasing.

One of my favorite tabletop card games is Sentinels of the Multiverse & after game setup the players get a turn that's composed of phases. All of those phases together make up your turn, even if something allows you to repeat a phase. That's always been a lot clearer to me.

MPQ has a similar structure, it's just Start of Turn, Power phase, Move Phase, and End of Turn. It's all just 1 turn, though. It would be asking a lot for the whole forum to adopt a whole new terminology, though!

I think that terminology and breakdown is excellent and could be really beneficial for in-depth explanations. I would then say that "turn 0 win" is shorthand for "win occurs during the turn 1 Power Phase". Of course, we might eventually need to coin "turn -1 win" for when we start winning during turn 1's Start of Turn Phase.

So Devpool/Grocket/Thanos is a turn -1 win, or a turn 0 win?

I think that team has to move the board, right? That'd be turn 1.

Here's why turn 1 vs 0 matters -- once you have to move the board, you run the risk of hitting a cascade, which takes time to resolve. A turn 0 win implies only casting a power, charged up by boosts or supports or both, so the timing is incredibly consistent.

A turn 1 win can be very fast! And if you're always making the right move it'll never cascade. But sometimes that move doesn't exist.

This is where we're at now with competition...hitting a cascade by accident that costs you a few seconds on a few nodes can be the difference between winning and losing.

That team doesn't need to move. Devpool with totem (since he counts as Spider-Verse) makes a web tile and does random damage ... boosted Grocket's strike tiles (boosted by the fact Devpool is a Guardian) and then when that KO's a random enemy, triggers Thanos. Works on SCL10 easy nodes. Start the match, win.

If that is turn 0, then turn 1 would be Golden May/Emma winning by firing a power before you make a move.

And if you win after making a move (say with Mephisto's Hellfire) ... is that still turn 1?

Ahh interesting. I always learn something new when it's about PvE.

No, I think for timing purposes that team and the Golden Oldie team are both turn 0 -- neither needs to move the board, so they'll both be very consistent in terms of timing.

Mephisto probably doesn't count as turn 0. The metric is board moves, for the reasons I stated up there.

Of course, I don't actually know anything -- do the PvE players really care? I was assuming the bit about accidental cascades, although the logic does seem sound!

@Godzillafan67 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@entrailbucket said:

@AdeptusRevolt said:

@Godzillafan67 said:

@Painmonger said:

I don't get turn 0. It sounds like on turn 1 you're casting a power and getting coulson's CD, and then next turn, turn 2, they resolve?

I've had similar thoughts for that phrasing.

One of my favorite tabletop card games is Sentinels of the Multiverse & after game setup the players get a turn that's composed of phases. All of those phases together make up your turn, even if something allows you to repeat a phase. That's always been a lot clearer to me.

MPQ has a similar structure, it's just Start of Turn, Power phase, Move Phase, and End of Turn. It's all just 1 turn, though. It would be asking a lot for the whole forum to adopt a whole new terminology, though!

I think that terminology and breakdown is excellent and could be really beneficial for in-depth explanations. I would then say that "turn 0 win" is shorthand for "win occurs during the turn 1 Power Phase". Of course, we might eventually need to coin "turn -1 win" for when we start winning during turn 1's Start of Turn Phase.

So Devpool/Grocket/Thanos is a turn -1 win, or a turn 0 win?

I think that team has to move the board, right? That'd be turn 1.

Here's why turn 1 vs 0 matters -- once you have to move the board, you run the risk of hitting a cascade, which takes time to resolve. A turn 0 win implies only casting a power, charged up by boosts or supports or both, so the timing is incredibly consistent.

A turn 1 win can be very fast! And if you're always making the right move it'll never cascade. But sometimes that move doesn't exist.

This is where we're at now with competition...hitting a cascade by accident that costs you a few seconds on a few nodes can be the difference between winning and losing.

That team doesn't need to move. Devpool with totem (since he counts as Spider-Verse) makes a web tile and does random damage ... boosted Grocket's strike tiles (boosted by the fact Devpool is a Guardian) and then when that KO's a random enemy, triggers Thanos. Works on SCL10 easy nodes. Start the match, win.

If that is turn 0, then turn 1 would be Golden May/Emma winning by firing a power before you make a move.

And if you win after making a move (say with Mephisto's Hellfire) ... is that still turn 1?

Ahh interesting. I always learn something new when it's about PvE.

No, I think for timing purposes that team and the Golden Oldie team are both turn 0 -- neither needs to move the board, so they'll both be very consistent in terms of timing.

Mephisto probably doesn't count. The metric is board moves, for the reasons I stated up there.

Sounds like turn -1 to me since the player doesn't fire a power; all action is initiated at and occurs during the "start of turn" phase.

I was using "turn" as "move the board." Turn 0 is before you move the board at all, turn 1 is after moving it once, etc.