No point trasitioning from 3*->4*. Going straight from 3*->5*

JacklagJacklag Posts: 109 Tile Toppler
edited 9 January 2020, 14:29 in Theories and Statistics
Here is my hypotesis. The number of 5*s in the game at the moment is almost the same as 3*s. The number of 4*s, however, is imense, and it grows by one or two every month. 

So I figured it would take me far less time to collect all 5*s than to collect every 4* and then start collecting 5*s. And 5*s will kick a lot more chamalangadingdongs than those 4*s. 

So I decided to blow all my hoard of 3,000 CP in a vault of 3 5*s (Beta Ray Bill, Hela, Thor), which came out at 5, 7 and 3 covers, respectively. They actually form a great team, especially compared to all those half covered 4*s I had gathered to that point. In the process of pulling I even finished Captain Worthy and Marvel, which are both great 4*s. 

So here is what I'm getting at. With the sheer number of 4*s we have in the game, maybe it's no longer a good strategy to roster every single 4* out there. What is the advantage of doing so? An extra LT whenever said 4* comes back in the rotation? Keeping just a small team of 4*s that better synergize with your 5*s might be a better use of one's resources. 

What do the veterans think?
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Comments

  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    There are a number of reasons to at least roster them all, not the least being node-access for PVE. Champing them all is going to be similarly important, because you won't be able to maintain the flow of resources you'll need to stay current on 5* play without a steady stream of 4* and 3* champ rewards feeding up. The thing about roster management in MPQ is that the lower tiers are the engine whose rewards compound, and feed the next level up as you get them. From my experience, if you want a shot at covering 5*s to ~13 as they come out, you need to maintain an average pull rate of 2.5+ per day, and the only way I've been able to do that (f2p) is by having the bulk of the 4* tier champed.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,807 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jacklag said:
    Here is my hypotesis. The number of 5*s in the game at the moment is almost the same as 3*s. The number of 4*s, however, is imense, and it grows by one or two every month. 

    So I figured it would take me far less time to collect all 5*s than to collect every 4* and then start collecting 5*s. And 5*s will kick a lot more tinykitty than those 4*s. 

    So I decided to blow all my hoard of 3,000 CP in a vault of 3 5*s (Beta Ray Bill, Hela, Thor), which came out at 5, 7 and 3 covers, respectively. They actually form a great team, especially compared to all those half covered 4*s I had gathered to that point. In the process of pulling I even finished Captain Worthy and Marvel, which are both great 4*s. 

    So here is what I'm getting at. With the sheer number of 4*s we have in the game, maybe it's no longer a good strategy to roster every single 4* out there. What is the advantage of doing so? An extra LT whenever said 4* comes back in the rotation? Keeping just a small team of 4*s that better synergize with your 5*s might be a better use of one's resources. 

    What do the veterans think?

    I'm sure I've made this argument myself in the past.  I feel there are pros and cons, but it would be cool to see someone as an "experiment" transition skipping the 4* tier.  I think it would be way faster to save up 350 or so pulls and just transition with the first good set of 5* available, than to champ the entire 4* tier first.

    However, while faster, I don't know how sustainable it would be.  For me as a mostly F2P player, 4* champ rewards are the life blood that helps me keep up with 5* releases. So you would be stuck playing the same three 5* characters for a very very long time (though some people intentionally play the same three characters despite having many options so this may not be a hinderance to some). 

    I personally wouldn’t do it (especially since the 4 tier is a lot of fun). But it’s sad that dilution is so bad that skipping the penultimate tier is at least a strategy worth considering this day and age. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 9 January 2020, 14:33
    I kind of skipped the 3* tier and went straight to 4* play; it worked (eventually), but probably isn't something I'd recommend. 

    By "skipped" I mean I rostered/champed as many as I liked to use at the 3* tier, and then prioritized rostering one of every 4/5* by throwing all my cp into classic and my LTs in to L as I got them at the expense of 2 and 3* roster slots. I would generally keep my vine full of every 2 and 3* character i got, and maintain one or two "flex slots" where I'd just single-cover roster somebody for node access and then sell them for the next one. Sometimes during alliance events I'd do this multiple times as the rounds flipped. 

    The reason I was doing it is because I wanted to pull as I went, and so I didn't want to waste any pulls, but after a certain amount of time I came to the conclusion I NEEDED to be farming, so I burned a bunch of 1 cover 4*s off my roster and started a 2* farm, then I would alternate re-rostering 3s and 4s until I had everyone back on roster. It took a long time, and certainly wasn't anywhere as optimal as just building a roster tier-on-tier. I made sure that I had everyone at the 4* tier that was "fed" by a 3* on roster, because i knew I'd be seeing covers for them more often.

    So now, post-shardpocalypse, you're going to be getting covers/shards for way more 4*s as champion rewards than you used to do since most 3s spit out covers for 2 different characters. Your tolerance for waste is going to have to be pretty high if you want to full on "skip" the 4* tier. 

    Also if you don't have the required 4 OR the required 5, your potential earn out of PVE is going to be seriously hampered. Is is possible at SCL 7 to hit full progression without either the 4 or 5?
  • JacklagJacklag Posts: 109 Tile Toppler

    Also if you don't have the required 4 OR the required 5, your potential earn out of PVE is going to be seriously hampered. Is is possible at SCL 7 to hit full progression without either the 4 or 5?
    Probably not, but listen to me now and believe me later. I know it is possible to reach full progression in SCL7 when you don't have the required 5*. I assume the 5* nodes are worth even more points than the 4* node, so it should be possible to reach full progression with the 5* instead of the 4*. There are almost three times as many 4*s as there are 5*s in the game right now. If you replace each slot carrying a low covered 4* by a 5*, you will have almost three times as much chance of having the required 5* than having the required 4*.

    Food for thought.
  • OJSPOJSP Posts: 813 Critical Contributor
    edited 9 January 2020, 18:21
    Jacklag said:
    I assume the 5* nodes are worth even more points than the 4* node
    This is true for SCL9 only now. In SCL7 and 8, the 5* nodes are usually worth less than the 4* nodes (except the wave nodes).

    The answer to the question whether it's possible to get full progression without the 4* and the 5* is yes, but it usually takes a near optimal play and we risk not getting it if the developers set the wrong numbers (this happened a few times in the past). There's a bit of math involved, but we could calculate it from the data we have from the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19iWb3XtfSfkryP6ABjGDMiF73YJEEUSNY8-5R_Ye5YE/htmlview#
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 9 January 2020, 18:29
    The pts reduction on the 5e node I believe was done to dis-incentivize 5* players from slumming, since it wasn't as much of an advantage to have the required anymore compared to most 4* people playing at the "correct" SCL for their rosters.

    That being said, @Jacklag you're talking quite casually about rostering all the current 5*s - that process is going to take you quite a long time any way you go about it, even with nearly all of them having feeders. Particularly if you're only earning the kinds of rewards you are able to pull down with a 3* roster. 
  • TPF AlexisTPF Alexis Posts: 3,722 Chairperson of the Boards
    I fall in line with the others here. The Champ Rewards from the 4* are a huge part of your resource income that lets you effectively stay in 5* land. Plus, as DD mentioned, 4* is a whole lot of fun, and I actually still miss it sometimes, especially when a new 4* comes out that's useless to a 5* player, but would be a great addition to a 4* roster.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    Jacklag said:
    I assume the 5* nodes are worth even more points than the 4* node
    This is true for SCL9 only now. In SCL7 and 8, the 5* nodes are usually worth less than the 4* nodes (except the wave nodes).

    The answer to the question whether it's possible to get full progression without the 4* and the 5* is yes, but it usually takes a near optimal play and we risk not getting it if the developers set the wrong numbers (this happened a few times in the past). There's a bit of math involved, but we could calculate it from the data we have from the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19iWb3XtfSfkryP6ABjGDMiF73YJEEUSNY8-5R_Ye5YE/htmlview#

    The 5E in SCL8 is worth more than the 4* node and means you can reach max progression from 4 clears. You can't do that with the 5E on SCL7 which is worth a pathetic amount of points.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    The pts reduction on the 5e node I believe was done to dis-incentivize 5* players from slumming, since it wasn't as much of an advantage to have the required anymore compared to most 4* people playing at the "correct" SCL for their rosters.

    That being said, @Jacklag you're talking quite casually about rostering all the current 5*s - that process is going to take you quite a long time any way you go about it, even with nearly all of them having feeders. Particularly if you're only earning the kinds of rewards you are able to pull down with a 3* roster. 

    There was quite a kerfuffel over it as it was mainly top alliances who were strategically benefitting.

  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jacklag said:

    Also if you don't have the required 4 OR the required 5, your potential earn out of PVE is going to be seriously hampered. Is is possible at SCL 7 to hit full progression without either the 4 or 5?
    Probably not, but listen to me now and believe me later. I know it is possible to reach full progression in SCL7 when you don't have the required 5*. I assume the 5* nodes are worth even more points than the 4* node, so it should be possible to reach full progression with the 5* instead of the 4*. There are almost three times as many 4*s as there are 5*s in the game right now. If you replace each slot carrying a low covered 4* by a 5*, you will have almost three times as much chance of having the required 5* than having the required 4*.

    Food for thought.

    This assumes that your roster with maybe a 1 cover 5* can do all the clears (in SCL8 or above). I have a 1 cover 5* Carnage who pretty much died doing the 5E in Infinite Pursuit but I was lucky in that he normally made it to the 4th clear before doing so but that was mainly because I had him buttressed with two champed boosted 4*. If you lose Carnage (or Doc Ock) early on then you are going to need healthpacks and if they die each clear then you are going to need 4 healthpacks...
  • OJSPOJSP Posts: 813 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:
    The 5E in SCL8 is worth more than the 4* node
    Always? I only open that spreadsheet on my phone, so I can't switch the SCLs around to see the point values. It's been a while since I played SCL8, so I wasn't sure and I included both 7 and 8 in my comment. Anyway, with that spreadsheet, we could calculate everything.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    The 5E in SCL8 is worth more than the 4* node
    Always? I only open that spreadsheet on my phone, so I can't switch the SCLs around to see the point values. It's been a while since I played SCL8, so I wasn't sure and I included both 7 and 8 in my comment. Anyway, with that spreadsheet, we could calculate everything.

    Well I just played SCL8 for the last two PvE events and the 5E was more points than the 4E. Ditto with the current Ock vs Northstar nodes for Hearts of Darkness.

    The SCL7 points are way down - they are only the level of an easy node clear point value.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 January 2020, 13:18
    I was surprised how low the SCL7 pts were the last time I played it; I typicaly 4x clear everything and walk with full progression in SCL9, and there aren't even enough points in it for you to do that.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 January 2020, 13:50
    I was surprised how low the SCL7 pts were the last time I played it; I typicaly 4x clear everything and walk with full progression in SCL9, and there aren't even enough points in it for you to do that.

    Not even close. The only advantage of playing SCL7 5E is it is an easier path to a token and 2CP (is it 2? Might be 1) per day.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    At 7 I think it's 1cp, then 2 in 8, and 3 in 9, which is the only per-node reward distinction I'm aware of. The real meat is in progression and placement - there is a pretty significant CP upgrade in progression if you can comfortably play-up. And to get back to a previous point being made - even with 5* Ghost Rider and 5* Doom champed, it wasn't a given that I would always be able to green-check the 5e node at SCL9 against tile movers (that Mockingbird/Heroes for Hire node comes to mind, also some of the uplifted Dark Avengers ones), so who you have champed really matters when you're saddled with a 1-6 cover placeholder 5* essential.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah that sounds right regarding the CP.

    And absolutely! It is bad enough playing any PvE where a new 4* is required because if they can't be hidden then they tend to die unless they were Juggernaut and you have to revive them or wait. But at least they are only regenerating to a low level. Considering the revive time for a 5* is so much longer at just one cover but that 5* is gonna maybe tank if you don't have anyone to protect it and you are looking at healthpacks to clear x 4. My Carnage got one-shotted I seem to remember at some point by a Muscle or Maggia Don!
  • JacklagJacklag Posts: 109 Tile Toppler
    Okay, okay. But you guys are playing at SCL8 because, I again assume, you have your full 4* roster and a few well covered 5*. I'm talking about a player who is fresh out of 3* land who is probably still trying hard against SCL7.

    I haven't yet played at SCL7 without the essential 4* (I usually play SCL5 or 6, only play SCL7 when the 4* cover is necessary to build a char I'm towards working). But I feel the progression is about the same as when I'm playing SCL5 and 6, in which I reach the final progression around 4 clearings of each node on the final day. 

    So I do believe it would be possible to reach final progression rewards with just the essential 2 and 3*s, if you don't have the required 4*.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just to help out -Scl8 5E is worth 670 per clear on the "Dark Design" level of Hearts of Darkness, 4E is worth 603. And that will increase on next day I believe.

    And of course we are playing with far advanced rosters, the other guys are 5* players much better at PvE than me. But that is why we can see the glaring flaw in your plan. Sorry.

    If you played Scl7 then I would expect that not only would you  lose the equivalent ( or a bit lower?) points for Northstar but you would only earn about 169-ish points for clearing Ock's 5E which of course scales higher than Northstar for opponent difficulty.

    Now - full progression at scl8 is 54,000 points. I suspect that Scl7 might be a bit lower but not by a large amount. If we factor in that the 4e at Scl7 I s worth at least say 550 points, that is I get 2k points per 4 clears lost against I believe less that 1k 5E 4x clear gains...assuming you can clear 4 times...
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,336 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you're green-checking all the nodes, it may work out that you can be missing the 4 and 5, but I'd be curious to know. Somebody should try that and report back.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,234 Chairperson of the Boards
    OK so more help or at least I hope so, certainly not trying to put you off - I am now clearing my 4th of the 5e and I have Muscles who have 36k health. Two of them. Not sure what the mark down is to ScL7 but let's us say that have maybe 28k there? I assume their Tommy gun will hit for some serious damage maybe a fair few thousand per hit...can your low cover 5* live through that 4 times without dying?
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