The graveyard (Lily's in particular)

shteev

Do we know exactly how the graveyard works? I've just started playing Liliana in earnest today, having finally got a Despoiler of Souls, and I'd like to know what I'm working with.

In general, if a card is discarded (not exiled) from your hand, or a creature (or support?) is destroyed while in play, it goes to your graveyard, which means it can later be resurrected with cards like Dark Petition, Necromantic Summons or Possessed Skaab.

However I have been suspecting today that some of the creatures which go to my graveyard are getting lost, and after a number of games I got some proof that this was definitely happening, when, at the end of a long game, I used Liliana's first ability to discard an Erebos's Titan, and then on the same turn filled up a Dark Petition with mana but was not allowed to cast it.

Is this a bug? Is the game forgetting about the status of the graveyard in the same way it used to forget that some of Jace's Mind Sculpt gems were activated? Or is the graveyard perhaps shuffled back into your library when you hit the 40 card limit as described here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=40244&p=493206#p492761

shteev

Could it be that Dark Petition doesn't work when you have 3 creatures in play?

majincob

shteev wrote:

Could it be that Dark Petition doesn't work when you have 3 creatures in play?

Dark petition doesn't cast if you have 3 creatures in play, even if the creature in the graveyard could reinforce one of your creatures.

Hibernum_JC

That's what it is - it doesn't know it can reinforce, so it won't return to the battlefield if it already is full.

The "graveyard" (note we purposefully don't call it so, and we also purposefully did not allow access to it to make the game a bit simpler) works as such: every time a card is Destroyed, it is sent to the graveyard. The only case in which this does not happen is when you manually discard a card from your hand, which we called Exile (a bit different than paper magic, I know).

The cards get added as a stack, and it works like a normal stack.

When the library gets refilled due to missing cards/etc, a new copy of each card you own is created in your library. The graveyard remains as is.

shteev

Ah, so that's a bug then... I've seen Dark Petition reinforce creatures if I have less than 3 in play, but the game won't let me cast it if I have 3.

Thanks for the info!

BigMao

I'm curious if Starfield of Nyx works the same way. Last time I played I had an impression that some of my previously destroyed Supports weren't returning to the battlefield, but I don't have a precise record. Could it be that Starfield is not reviving any destroyed supports that are already on the battlefield (for example, because I cast a second copy)?

It would be a nice feature if we were allowed to view the cards in the graveyard. Also, it would be a nice buff for these kinds of "return from the graveyard" effects to reinforce copies that are already in play.

Hibernum_JC

shteev wrote:

Ah, so that's a bug then... I've seen Dark Petition reinforce creatures if I have less than 3 in play, but the game won't let me cast it if I have 3.

Thanks for the info!

It's not necessarily a bug but more of a technical issue - the cards don't know which cards exactly are on the battlefield, just that there are cards and how many of them. If you cast it with a non-full battlefield but the card is a duplicate of one already on the battlefield, it'll reinforce, but if the battlefield is full it'll refuse to cast. I'll look to see if I can force it, though.

As for Starfield of Nyx, it doesn't work the same way, because there's always room on the board to put summons. If there are no more of the card's color left, it'll go on another random color.

BigMao

Thanks for the reply. I thought I had some support cards in the graveyard that weren't coming back, but I will pay closer attention next time.

majincob

Hibernum_JC wrote:

It's not necessarily a bug but more of a technical issue - the cards don't know which cards exactly are on the battlefield, just that there are cards and how many of them. If you cast it with a non-full battlefield but the card is a duplicate of one already on the battlefield, it'll reinforce, but if the battlefield is full it'll refuse to cast. I'll look to see if I can force it, though.

It should work like Lilliana's final ability where it summons it regardless of board state and asks if you want to replace a creature or will reinforce one automatically if it's there. It should be the player's responsibility to remember the last creature put in the graveyard and for them to enable or disable the spell before casting it.

jollyrogercjf

Here is a quick summary of how Liliana's discard ability works

Here is you hand







you use Liliana's discard last 2 cards for their first and last...

This is what you return



always put the creature you want returned second from last.

Have fun with graveyard recursion, I know I am.

shteev

Thanks for the info. I'm learning more as I go along.

One thing I found out today is that if you discard 2 cards to Liliana's first ability, then cast Dark Petition, it's the second to last card which comes back (the one higher up in your hand), but if an *opponent* Liliana makes you discard the first and last card in your hand and then you cast Dark Petition, then it's the *last* card in your hand which comes back, not the first one.